The Emotional Rollercoaster of Nursing a Toddler with Erin Harris

Has your relationship with nursing ever led you to feel guilt, shame, confusion, sadness, love, and even grief?   This episode is for you.

My guest today, Erin Harris, is a mom of two, founder of Nursing Mamas, and a lactation consultant who specifically equips parents nursing toddlers past one year.

Nursing toddlers is a whole new world compared to nursing a newborn, due to the shift from nursing on demand, to a toddler demanding to nurse.   Erin shares so much insight into the emotional cycle of an extended breastfeeding parent, from love to burnout to guilt to grief to sadness and back again.  

No matter where you are in your journey of feeding your child - there is no wrong way. I know you’ll learn so much through Erin’s story. 

IN THIS EPISODE, WE COVERED...

• Erin's opposite experiences nursing her two kids
• Key strategies that protect + preserve your nursing relationship
• How to successfully wean when you're ready - and how to know when that is

DON'T MISS-

• Erin + Scott's family mission statement
• The lessons Erin's strong-willed child taught her 

// CONNECT WITH ERIN HARRIS//
FREE 30-min 1:1 Consult
Register for the next Extended Nursing Workshop
IG: @erin.nursingmamas
FB: Nursing Mamas

I believe in you & I'm cheering you on.
Come say hi!  I'm @parent_wholeheartedly on Insta.

Transcript

Erin Harris: 0:00

What I kind of call the emotional cycle of the extended breastfeeding mom, because there's starts with the love, and you're bonded and you're connected, and it feels like a superpower. Because no one else has this power that you do for your child. And it can feel really, really good. But then it can tip into burnout. Because if they're too demanding, and there's a shift between on demand breastfeeding, and the first year, too demanding breastfeeding and the toddler years, and this is where you come in, right, the toddler and it can be really, really hard to know. And understand how do you transition, they're you their whole lives, if they want it, you give it to them. And it can be really hard to understand how to do it to be okay with them crying, if they don't get it. And that's really hard to do when you're by yourself. And so you just give it and once you give in it teaches them well, I just need a tantrum, and then you'll give it to me and it becomes a cycle. So you get into the kind of resentment, touch out burnout phase.

Danielle Bettmann: 1:12

Ever feel like you suck at this job? Motherhood I mean? Have too much anxiety.... And not enough patience. Too much yelling... not enough play. There's no manual, no village, no guarantees. The stakes are high. We want so badly to get it right. This is survival mode. We're just trying to make it to bedtime. So if you're full of mom guilt, your temper scares you. You feel like you're screwing everything up. And you're afraid to admit any of those things out loud. This podcast is for you. This is Failing Motherhood. I'm Danielle Bettmann. And each week we'll chat with a mom ready to be real. Sharing her insecurities, her fears, your failures and her wins. We do not have it all figured out. That's not the goal. The goal is to remind you, you are the mom your kids need. They need what you have. You are good enough and you're not alone. I hope you've happened ear buds somehow sneak away and get ready to hear some hope from the trenches. You belong here, friend, we're so glad you're here. Hey, it's Danielle. While there is likely no shortage of mom guilt in every single avenue of motherhood, if you accidentally find yourself or set out to breastfeed for over a year, you're likely to stumble upon a whole bunch more reasons to feel guilt, shame, confusion, sadness, love, and even grief. On today's episode of Failing Motherhood, I'm talking to Erin Harris, a prior client of mine. Aaron is a wife, mom of two and founder of Nursing Mamas. Besides being a certified lactation educator, Erin has two master's degrees, one in Communication Studies and the other in health communication, with an emphasis on the intersection between family and health communication. Today, she takes her 10 years experience teaching college level classes to create virtual prenatal and postpartum lactation courses for nursing moms. She brings in her unique communication background by discussing how women can best communicate their breastfeeding needs to their partners, family, friends and healthcare team. Her goal is to teach new moms what they don't know they need to know about nursing, especially nursing toddlers. In this episode, Erin shares her own journey in nursing her two kids, which could not have gone more wildly different. She shares so much insight into the emotional cycle of an extended breastfeeding parent, from love, to burnout, to guilt, to grief, to sadness, and back again. Nursing toddlers is a whole new world compared to nursing a newborn due to a critical shift from nursing on demand to a toddler demanding to nurse preserving your nursing relationship comes down to coping with your toddler's big emotions, setting clear expectations and separating your love and attention from your milk. No matter where you are in your journey of feeding your child, there is no wrong way. I know that you'll learn so much through hearing Erin's story. So let's dive in! Welcome to Failing Motherhood. My name is Danielle Bettmann and on today's episode, I'm joined by Erin Harris. Hey Erin.

Erin Harris: 4:48

Hey, how are you?

Danielle Bettmann: 4:49

Good. How are you?

Erin Harris: 4:52

Doing good now that we figured out the tech stuff.

Danielle Bettmann: 4:55

We've been sitting here for like 15 minutes trying to figure out how to see each other no big deal.

Erin Harris: 5:01

I do breastfeeding, not tech.

Danielle Bettmann: 5:03

but we have seen each other before we've seen each other plenty of times. So that's, that's okay. I'm so excited though, that we get to do this in a totally new format for our conversations. So before, I don't wanna get ahead of myself, go ahead and just share who you are and who's in your family to my listeners.

Erin Harris: 5:20

My name is Erin Harris, and I been married to my husband, Scott for coming up on 10 years on in March, it's 10 years, and we have two kids. Avery is six and Luca is three, and they are a handful. But it's just amazing and smart and sweet and sometimes too smart. And have definitely made me grow as a person and a parent for sure.

Danielle Bettmann: 5:48

Yeah, yeah. So have you ever felt like you were failing motherhood?

Erin Harris: 5:52

Yeah, yeah, numerous. times. If I think I'm failing, there's a lesson to be learned. That's kind of how I try to, you know, frame it in my mind, because otherwise it can be too overwhelming. And too, you get too hard on yourself. Because you're, especially after the, you know, the first one, you want to do everything perfect. And then the second one comes in, you realize that it's completely different ballgame. And you just don't know what you're doing generally. So you're just everyone's just kind of trying to figure it out. Which time do I want to start with? I think the time that usually pops into my mind is when Avery fell out of her crib. Oh, no. And we have it recorded. And she was ...it was actually a pack and play. And we've literally we're going to she was kind of pulling up a little bit on the changing pad or changing table. We were going to lower it that day. And people had told us like put pillows under and we're like, yeah, we'll do that. And she never had done this before. But she grabbed on to it and stood up. And I'm recording her like look at you. And she just heard a big head tumbled forward, and she just dove headfirst off the side of it. And Scott lunge like he was a soccer goalie. And it was like he was lunging for a ball and caught her. And it he calls it the the worst and best parenting. So lesson learned with number two was lower the back and play and crib way before you think you need to. Because it was scary.

Danielle Bettmann: 7:29

That's super scary. Yeah. But we've all had one of those moments of like rolling off the bed or like changing table or something like that, where you're just like, No, not me!

Erin Harris: 7:39

Because they always do it when you're not expecting right. You know, ever when you're prepared. It's always when you're unprepared. So that was definitely like, Oops, okay, lesson learned. Yeah, but really all of my, my big lessons like the first four and a half years of my parenting experience, I can't just connect for breastfeeding, which, you know, that's what I do now. But I had a really hard time in the beginning with Avery. And we struggled and it was painful. And she would have, you know, was losing the weight. And it was really kind of traumatizing. And this thing that seemed like it was supposed to be so natural. And I took two classes for was really, really, really hard. And overcoming that felt like a really big success. And we kept going into long term nursing and to two years and beyond. And then I was like, I have this thing down. You know, I get pregnant again. And I'm like, this is this is it. i There's an expert now, right? And we've latched my goal was like to not use a nipple shield to to just be able to latch him right away. And I did. And so yay, success. But then he threw me a curveball four months in and just quit. He was like, I'm done. And I couldn't wrap my head around it. And I felt like such a failure because I felt rejected. It was so hard that like, why don't you want me and it really now plays still plays into his personality. He's a strong-willed kid. And he just he's very sensitive to food. He's my picky eater, and it all culminated into this thing and the more I tried to get him to do it, the less he wanted to do it and we just tumbled leading into this moment toward bottle feeding and away from nursing and I had taken seven months off. I pre COVID I was a college instructor and both my kids are in June. They are three days apart. Their birthdays are three days apart. But with Avery I had to decide whether or not I was going back in the Fall, or in the winter. So basically nine weeks postpartum or seven months postpartum, and at the time had no maternal leave, paid leave. And so I went back earlier with her really didn't like it took longer with him and ended up being stuck pumping by myself with a baby at home, and feeding bottles. So it wasn't ideal. And I definitely felt like I had failed. But I think now looking back, I didn't fail breastfeeding, I failed at learning and tried to understand him, and trying to force him to do the things he didn't want to do. And that's a lesson over and over. And it's what got me to you. It's, I can't make him do the things he doesn't want to do. And trying to, you know, navigate that is tricky. And kind of, you know, reverse psychology on him is sometimes key too. But it was a really important lesson that every kid is different. And I don't have all the answers. And just because something worked with one doesn't mean it's going to work with the other.

Danielle Bettmann: 11:04

Yes, I think that's that's such an important lesson that we all have to learn in one shape or form. But for you, it was best learned through your breastfeeding journey. And that's what really took to you being able to realize just how powerful this is for your relationship with your kids, but for everyone else is that you can help them help equip them to Yes, and I really just want to like dive so deep into that today. Because I really haven't covered breastfeeding as a topic as of yet that I, you know, maybe in and out of some people's stories, but the whole experience of breastfeeding, for me was a big part of my journey into motherhood as well, because as just as I was preparing for labor, I was preparing for breastfeeding in any way, shape, or form I could. And I know that's part of your story, too. So let's like paint the whole picture. So take us back. And who were you before you became a mother? And like, how did you lead up to having Avery your first and then what was like the immediate experience of new motherhood? Because I know it wasn't cupcakes, rainbows and butterflies?

Erin Harris: 12:20

No. I don't. Honestly, I don't understand people who enjoy the newborn phase. I hated it. Like I just, if I could give me a terrible two tantrum any day, then a floppy newborn. They're so overwhelmed. Yeah, okay. So before, before I really I was a communication instructor, I have two master's degrees in communication, one in health communication, one in general. I taught public speaking, I taught interpersonal communication, and I loved it. i i That was my career. And I thought I was going to do it forever. I was very passionate about it. And I loved it. And when I got pregnant, I'm also very studious. I love learning. And so of course, I dove deep into all things pregnancy and, and also breastfeeding. Like, I knew I wanted to breastfeed. And I got a doula, which I highly recommend. I loved my Doula so much. And she asked me, What did I fear most? What was my biggest fear around birth? And I thought that was such a great question. And really what it for me it came down to was I really didn't want a C section. I didn't want to be cut open. And so the more looked into that, the more it became like well, the fewer interventions you get, the less likely you're going to get to the C section. And that got me to decide I wanted a natural birth, or I should say an unmedicated birth, not natural. And I did Hypnobabies I practice meditation daily for months, and was like doing this thing. And I did. It was 19 hours and I had like an unmedicated vaginal birth. And so there became the you know, this huge success like I did it. I'm so excited into Okay, now let's have this magical nursing moment. And, you know, go to latch, and it's not working, she's not latching and my Doula looks at, at Scott, It's like 10 in the morning after 19 hours of being up and she goes, go to Target and get a nipple shield. I had never even heard of a nipple shield. I'm like, what is that? What's going on? So she just she wouldn't watch. We had the hardest time the the nurses like they would just come in and grab me. And I would be like, I can't do this with three hands at home. Like you need to show me how to do it. And it was just so overwhelming. They sent me home with a pump and like a hospital grade pump, but maybe they verbally told me how to use it. I didn't have any written instructions of what they wanted me to do. And I just was already getting sore. We can, you know, cracked nipples and all of that. And on day, three or four, my milk still hadn't come in. And I called the milk line. And the nurse I told her what was happening and that he was very tired and not waking up and had been like for hours. And she basically yelled at me and said, You need to go to Target right now she's probably starving and jaundice, you need to get formula, write this down, go get formula and feed your baby. And at that, that was the moment where it was just like, I thought to myself, like I'm starving my child right now and just meltdown mode and called my Doula she ended up sending over a postpartum doula who helped me. And if I didn't have that resource, I would not be here today. And I think of so many of the women who struggle, right, you can't become an extended nurse, or if you don't get through those first two weeks, and so many people don't, it was very traumatizing, but we figured it out. And but she would nurse for hours on me and then fall asleep. And I sat in that chair 12 hours a day, I watched all of Gilmore Girls, I watched all of parenthood, I watch a probably something else too, I'm sure but like, full TV shows, sitting nursing. So it's, I am envious of people who have the you know, the easier time but even bottle feeding like there's, there's an ease to it. And the burden is lifted a little bit more than it is on the exclusive nurse or that I don't think most women are prepared for and I don't know, if you can be fully, you know,

Danielle Bettmann: 16:33

And I remember you mentioning, like right until you're in it, why? Why didn't someone prepare me for this? How did it I didn't know that this was a possibility or that there would be complications, or like that my body something would be wrong with my body that like I wouldn't be able to do it. It feels very shameful to be like I'm failing my baby.

Erin Harris: 16:54

Yes, yes. Shameful. Just the grief, we'll come back to grief later, but like the grief of it, of it, and losing the the the loss of the experience you thought I thought I was going to have and it wasn't that I wasn't producing milk because I ultimately then also because of lack of education, over compensated and pumped myself into an oversupply that I then had to continue to manage. But my problem wasn't supply. My problem was no one had mentioned different types of nipples. No one had mentioned different breast size and maybe that small breasts and large breasts, you have to cope differently, you know, in for your baby. And I'm like, that's the part like, why I literally wanted to create a course that let's have a room. Have everyone take off their shirts and go like, alright, you have flat nipples, you don't, this might be an issue for you. And because that's what I was missing. I took a hospital class, I took a doula class, and it just wasn't there. Yeah,

Danielle Bettmann: 17:54

no, that's such a good point. Because there's no like intergenerational conversations I don't think happening either where you would think that you maybe would get a little insight into what to expect or, you know, what that experience has been in the past for people, you know, like, there's just, it's not a conversation, it's very much happening behind closed doors. And if she's scared to like, mention it either. And what that says, you know,

Erin Harris: 18:20

yeah, with new moms, right, like, you don't want to be like, wait till your nipples are bleeding. That's fine. You know, you don't want to scare people. So it's it's fine balance of like informing without fear, and not over educating to things that may not be necessary. It is really a hard balance to find.

Danielle Bettmann: 18:41

Yeah, I remember specifically, I knew one other friends that had had a baby, maybe six to nine months before me. And I was at like three or four weeks. And I was trying to follow the book, whatever, like that Bible is for the Lactating Mother or something. And I was just like, lost and feeling very overwhelmed by the whole process, feeling like I my body was no longer mine, that like I was never going to get my life back. This was so over encompassing and demanding. Like, how could you possibly ever do this with a toddler and the second time around, I was just like, very drowning in it. And I remember reaching out to her over text, just being like, hey, is this normal? Like, I don't know what's going on here. But this was really, really, really hard. And she was like, Yes, it is really, really hard. And like the light at the end of the tunnel is around six weeks, things will start feeling better and more manageable around six weeks to just like, hold on. And to me like I still remember that text because that's what got me through. It was just someone else's experience validating that I wasn't doing it entirely wrong, and it does actually get better because I really needed to hear that.

Erin Harris: 19:58

Yeah, it did it for you. Oh, it did. Good.

Danielle Bettmann: 20:01

Yeah, I really didn't have too many over under supply issues. So things did really start to regulate for me. And it continued to get kind of easier and easier as in like, the convenience factor, you know, started paying off, I did have to go back to work full time and pump, which is a whole nother journey.

Erin Harris: 20:21

So that's a very interesting topic too, because I work with post COVID moms, and post COVID Work Life is very different for a lot of women than it was before. My first experience going back to work, it was I went like the week before school was going to start to prep. And I hadn't thought about it at all. Like, you know, a normal office situation, you can usually take breaks when you need to, but with teaching, and it's different even than elementary school, because my schedule was very sporadic every day was different. And I didn't know to not schedule myself two back to back classes, one of which was three hours, backed up to an hour and 25 minute class. And yeah, exactly your face right now. It's like, you can feel it right. You could feel the discomfort. Yeah. And oh, yeah, I didn't know when I went to my office. I was like, oh, wait a second, my office is a group office with a windowed wall, this isn't going to work. And I didn't know where to go. And there wasn't a pump room on campus at all. So I had to go back to my car in 90 degree weather and pump, because I didn't know where else to go. And I don't know. So I learned from that lesson, right. And I had, thankfully very supportive supervisors, but two male supervisors who were like, okay, here use this closet, someone else used it. It's like a storage room. And they were like, Oh, it walks. But you know, someone else was nursing in there, and the water guy came in once, but that was it. And it's like, what, like, so then I was all nervous people were gonna open the door, I'd have to crawl under the desk to plug in my pump, and like move things off the desk. So it wasn't ideal. And I actually that was my first mission breastfeeding mission that I knew I wanted another kid. And so this was not going to be what I wanted to do the next time. And I took me a year, but I got to pump rooms on campus. And so the next time I came back, I was able to pump in a very nice room with a lock on the inside. And it was very lovely. Yeah, Kevin's Good. Nice. I'm good for you. I'm really proud of that. So with with Luca, when I went back, I went back in the end of January 2020. So I was only working eight weeks before locked down. And actually, I'll continue with this story and then kind of bounce back a little bit because you mentioned how am I supposed to do this with two? And I'll share my solution for it. Yeah, I was only at work. And it was going well, I we had a nanny two days a week. That's when I was going into the office. And then everything shut down. And we had Avery who was three, Luca was nine months. And we were both trying to work from the same office with three naps that didn't overlap. Luca would take like 40 minutes for every nap to go down anyway. And I was pumping four times a day, and still up at night with him. So it was just like, chaos. And I was one of the more than a full time job. Yeah. And I was just one of those 1000s of other moms that would I can't do this anymore. So I finished the semester. And at that point, I already knew that fall semester was going to be online. And I just looked at Scott and was like, I can't I can't do that. And we don't have a lot of family help and consistent care. And so I became unexpectedly full time mom. And it was not something I was prepared for or ever expected to do. Like I said, I thought I fully plan to be a two income house, you know, working parents and would have been perfectly happy with that. But jumping back slightly to when he was born. My milk had dried up with Avery during pregnancy. And but I always knew because it was my parenting tool. It's how I soothed her. It's how if she was sick, she would she would take milk and nothing else. It was how I got her to sleep. It was everything. And I knew she was old enough to resent the fact that her brother was getting it and she wasn't getting milk. And so I told her that that the baby was going to bring the milk back and that she could have it when he comes. And so I re-latched her when he was born. And that took some negotiation. This is where I started really learning about boundary setting because she saw him having it all the time and she wanted it all the time and that was too much and the meltdowns because she was upset Because this little she wants said, like, I wanted to throw him in the trash. Because she was like, what is this Gremlin coming in stealing my mom. And so I finally was just like, you can have it in the morning, you can have it on naptime. You can have it at bedtime. And she was like, okay, and I kind of calmed down the demandingness of it. And so it just worked. And so we started tandem nursing. And there was one point where they were both melting down. Scott was in the shower, I had boiling water on the stove. And I just sat down in the middle of the kitchen, and latch them both. And they both immediately stopped crying. And I just leaned back against the fridge and was just like, this is why this is why I re-latched her. like this is the moment that I need this tool. And it's one of the few times I had Scott take nursing picture, I just wasn't one to take a lot of pictures. And I didn't nurse publicly very often. I was like, I want to remember this moment, take a picture. Like this is my success. So we were still tandem nursing with COVID when the lockdown and I just transitioned to, to being a preschool teacher. And let me tell you a preschool teacher, like 20 times harder than college, there's a reason I teach adults. And I went on Pinterest and found a preschool homeschool workbook. And every night after they went to bed, I would prep out a lesson plan for the day because that's what kept me sane, was knowing and having a plan. And I saw them like when I had a plan. And they saw me knowing what I was going to be doing for the day, their day went better too. And then of course, mine went better because they weren't melting down. Totally. And it was really good. And I'm really grateful for so much of it because Avery has a lot of positive memories of COVID because of that time, and she even sometimes asked me like if she's home for the day, like, Oh, can we do a, you know, a lesson like we used to. And so that's, it's good, and it's special. And I'm grateful for the you know, pushing through that, but it was definitely hard. It was it was a really, really hard time as it was for everyone.

Danielle Bettmann: 27:14

Yeah. So for Avery, she extended nursed and tandem nursed until about what age?

Erin Harris: 27:23

She was nearly four and a half. So how we ended up weaning, so Luca was on a formula a little bit over a year, a couple months because he just was really delayed on food, he had a lot of trouble gagging and, and all that sort of thing. So I finally got him off the formula, and then slowly wean him off the pump, or I stopped pumping and just transition him away from milk completely. He still doesn't drink milk. Like we had a conversation about it last night actually like It's like, No, I don't like it like Okay, fine. But fair he once I stopped pumping, and that was a really hard weaning process to actually weaning from the pump was harder for me than her because my body was so used to pumping at certain times a day. And I literally would have like this insistent urge physically to what it was like going needing to go to the bathroom, right? It's like if I always imagine it when you're on an airplane, and the guy next to you is sleeping, and you really have to go to the bathroom and just every bump, you're like, Oh my God. That's what it feels like when you're eating. And so it was really hard emotionally because of hormones were going crazy. But once I regulated from that my supply really dropped. And what's amazing about nursing a verbal child is they can tell you about it. And so I'd asked her like is anything coming out what's going on there. And my right side, which was the lower producer had dried up at that point. And so we were just like three, literally three minutes a day, or like in the morning, and at night, we would time it. And she was nursing and we had a conversation. And I just told her, you know, one day the milk may just be gone. And that's how it can end or you can choose when you want it to end. And she went back and forth for a while and there was a time where she would every time she would finish nursing, she would give my my breast a hug and a kiss to just in case it didn't come back the next time. And we both cried about it together. And it was it was hard. And it was sad. Even though I was ready to be done. I was so like, Oh my God, I want to be able to just leave and not think about it, you know? And yes, that time together and that bond was really really sad to lose. But one day she finally was just like, No, I'm ready. And it was it and she didn't I fully expected her to come back the next morning and she was like no, I'm good. I'm done. So that was it. Wow. And it was it was beautiful. And you know, she still ever occasionally will be like can you just like put Um, somehow for me, I'm like, No, it doesn't work that way. But she remembers. I think she remembers the cuddles and everything but she remembers what it tastes like. And I just was talking to another extended nursing mom with a three year old. And she said to he, he says it's his favorite thing. It's he loves it more than chocolate. You know, when it's so hard when it's their favorite thing in the world? And you know, you're taking it away. It's really, really hard.

Danielle Bettmann: 30:25

Yeah, yeah. And then contrast that experience with how Luke is experience was with like, you know, early on, running into problems, unexpected problems,

Erin Harris: 30:39

It just is night and day, you know, like, hindsight. Now, obviously, I'm grateful for the, the experience I had with him, because I think it makes me a better lactation educator. Because if I had only had the experience of a kid who never wanted to stop, I wouldn't fully understand and appreciate the struggles women have, whose kids don't want to do that. And even before him, some of my friends would say like, oh, yeah, they just didn't want it anymore. And I didn't understand it; did not compute, because she wanted it 24/7 He literally would physically turn his head away from me, and, and not in cry if I tried to nurse him. And some of it, you know, they talked about nipple confusion. And that's not really a thing. It's really nipple preference. You know, the, the flow of a bottle is more consistent. It's easier to draw out. And so he was just like, Yeah, this is cool. Why am I working so hard? You know, with you, when I'm getting the same thing over here. And I, I just knew I, there was no way I was going to pump exclusively. I wasn't gonna get up in the night. And, and so we kind of split I, I forget exactly how it turned out over the months. But I was very comfortable with like four times a day pumping, he got basically half his, his supply, or my supply was half his feeds. And the other half was formula. And it worked for us. And they got for formula, right? Like that's, I don't even know, I don't even know what we would have done or what I would have done. I would not be saying I think at that point. Yeah, because it needs to work for both the mom and the kid. It can't be, it can't be one sided, or it's just too much.

Danielle Bettmann: 32:20

And did you have clarity with that, like, right away? Or did you struggle with any, like guilt or confusion through that process? Initially, with the formula like, yeah, when you first had to introduce other alternatives,

Erin Harris: 32:33

Not with him, because I did with her. So I had a freezer supply and was dead set on like, Okay, I'm gonna, like no formula. This is like, it's so burdened on us like that, or the fear, they're going to have one formula bottle and not want to nurse anymore, which did kind of happen with him

Danielle Bettmann: 32:50

for their IQ will drop 25 points,

Erin Harris: 32:53

Right? Or it's going to destroy their stomach, all of these things, right. And with her, my freezer supply went bad. So I, I just couldn't keep up with what her need during the day when I was gone. And so I had to supplement. But it was at the end. And I think I went through like two boxes total. But it was fine. She did find the relief, I felt having that backup that the burden of it wasn't solely on me was really nice. And so going in with Luca, I definitely had I had formula I learned from the first time, right, like I researched, I knew what formula I wanted. And like that was probably some of the worst advice I had prenatally was like, Don't worry about it, don't look at formula, don't this and that, like no research the formula, no. So that way, if you do need to supplement at some point, you can feel very confident that this is the formula you want to use. And so I had it ready, I knew it was fine. And he took it fine. It didn't affect his system. So we just went with it. Especially with two kids and maybe if it had only been him it would have been different, but there was just no way for for me to to do that because I still needed to give her attention and I wasn't going to be locked to a pump and I at the time the wireless pumps for like $500 and I wasn't going to do that and I knew my pump really well. So I just kind of got latched to it but I got really good at driving while pumping as a tip. That's really good. You can get an adapter and so a lot of my pump sessions would be in the car traveling places so I got really good at it but it when lockdown happened that really screwed me up. Because then I was stuck at home with them.

Danielle Bettmann: 34:59

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Erin Harris: 37:38

So he was nine months when COVID hit. So I had four months, from four months to nine - like eight months, I was home by myself with him. And so that's why I would like put him in the car. And we would drive somewhere. And I would pump while driving. And that's kind of what and then I'd have a bottle ready for him. And it worked really nicely. But then when that stopped, basically like during COVID Scott would have he would take a break from work and go take them on like a walk so I could get a break and eat. And I would pump while eating. And so I'd really didn't have a break, right? Because I was still locked down and in pump land. But yeah, it was just 24/7 Still, even with supplementing. It was it was a lot.

Danielle Bettmann: 38:19

So you ended up then weaning him? Like did he initiate that ending of the weaning? Or can I how did that wrap up.

Erin Harris: 38:26

So with weaning him from the bottle that was more as he took food more, it was a lot easier to kind of just replace, because with her, she wanted to get the milk she wanted me. And so it's a much harder transition. But that detachment from me made it easier for the bottle. He wasn't like, I'm desperate for the bottle, we could get him a sippy cup. Oh, there was one funny story in terms of failing motherhood. So both my kids really took to sign language pretty well, Avery especially. But the thing with kids and signing is their signs don't look exactly like normal, you know, like how we're teaching it or the books. And so the nanny was there one day, and she was like, I think there might be something wrong with his ear, he keeps kind of hitting his ear. And so I was observing and watching him for a couple days. And then I realized he was trying to find water. And so the poor kid was asking for water. And we had no idea. And so I think once we realized he was asking for water and we started giving him water instead of the formula. And we're like transitioning the fluids in that way that really changed things too and made it easier. So weaning him was not as big of a deal on his end more on me physically and having to go through that process was not fun. It's it's just, you know, it feels uncomfortable. Yeah.

Danielle Bettmann: 39:50

And I know we want to really kind of like soak into the weaning aspect of the nursing experience on this call because you There's such a relationship with the mom side of the experience with grief. So go ahead and dive into that for a little bit of like, what you feel like is a common experience or like, what it can be validated or normalized through, like our emotional experience through that process.

Erin Harris: 40:18

So what I started to notice when working with women, is I wasn't identifying as much with women who wanted to wean before a year. And there are various reasons why you need to or want to do that. But because they were just like, No, I'm done. I'm good. I'm like, really? Are you okay? And they're like, Yeah, I'm good. But every time I talk to an extended nurse or so that's someone who's breastfed over a year, it was a different experience, because the nursing relationship transforms. And it's no longer this need just for nutrition. Obviously, the whole first year isn't just that either. But the relationship and the bond and the connection and the love and the cuddles is just such a different thing. And that extended nursing experience. And my big aha moment was I was interviewing someone who had she had re-lactated, so, made herself lactate again, for an adopted child after nursing, I think three or four other children. And so we were talking about this. And ultimately, what came up was that the reason she did it was because she didn't know how to parent without it. She had been nursing essentially, for 20 years. And there was this moment where she kind of got teary and she was like, there's going to be a day where I'm not a breastfeeding mom. And it just like, I felt that it was it was just this moment of realizing like, Oh, this is this is something new that I haven't seen out there. I haven't seen a lot about extended nursing. It's all about the newborn, which is where I kind of started to, so I really started honing in on that. And there's so many struggles for women over a year because like, for example, it just came out recently the CDC and kind of aligned with the rest of the world and said, they support women nursing to two years, like there's nothing unhealthy, like doctors shouldn't encourage it or not dissuade them from doing it. But there's nothing educational about what to do at that point, like, what do you do if you want to quit? What how does that happen, and you're just kind of a flounder. And then there's also this isolation, there's a lot of closeted nursing, because there's judgment. The older the kid, the more the judgment. So there's a lot of women, a lot of women nursing, older children that just don't know what to do. And they love it. But they also hate it. And I was definitely there many times with Avery like the those just wanting to not have my body be the thing that calmed her all the time and letting someone else put her to bed and being able to leave the house for an extended time without feeling uncomfortable. And so I kind of dove into this deeper and started interviewing more people and learning about the pain points, which I fully identified with. And a lot of it is I what I kind of call the emotional cycle of the extended breastfeeding mom. Because there's starts with the love, and you're bonded and you're connected, and it feels like a superpower. Because no one else has this power that you do for your child. And it can feel really, really good. But then it can tip into burnout. Because if they're too demanding, and there's a shift between on demand breastfeeding in the first year, too demanding breastfeeding and the toddler years, and this is where you come in, right the toddler. And it can be really, really hard to know. And understand how do you transition they're you their whole lives. If they want it, you give it to them. And it can be really hard to understand how to do it to be okay with them crying, if they don't get it. And that's really hard to do when you're by yourself. And so you just give it and once you give it in it teaches them well, I just need a tantrum and then you'll give it to me and it becomes a cycle. So you get into the kind of a resentment touched out burnout phase. When that tips. It's usually what I see when I have moms come to me and just say like I'm done. I'm so done. I need to wean now, so if they're by themselves and they tried to do it cold turkey or try to wean at night, they usually backfires, basically because they don't have a tool to replace the nursing with. And so their kids upset. Usually they're both exhausted and they start feeling guilty. And they start grieving, right, they start maybe thinking about like I'm taking the thing away from they'd love so much. Maybe the kid says something like when Avery was two she just said"milk is love". And I'm like, Oh, how do I take love away from you? So yeah, what a terrible mom, right? And so it becomes the guilt. And the more and more when I was hearing these women speak it, it goes beyond guilt to grief, that guilt was really one component of the larger grieving process of grieving the loss of this relationship. And because slowly, slowly, they get bigger, and the nursing sessions get farther apart, and shorter, and one day, you know what's going to end and that can be really, really sad. And so they get sad. And then they get sentimental. And then they get back in love with it. And they go, Okay, let's keep nursing and the whole thing starts again. And this can be, you know, an occasional thing. But some women go through this on a daily basis, maybe they wake up and are already like, woken up by someone grabbing their shirt and boob and wanting to nurse and so without setting boundaries, this cycle keeps going, because there's no way and no education out there of how to make it stop. And that's what I'm trying to do now is focus on extend, making extended nursing more manageable, and then making a weaning a toddler smoother. And keeping, as I call it, like keeping the love when the milk goes away. And oh, yeah, so it's been really, really special. I it's, it's just such a big part of my hearts. And helping these moms like I really, I'm really loving it. And it's something going back to COVID, I would have never been here without COVID I, I had the thoughts that maybe somewhere down the line when the kids were older, maybe I would be come a lactation educator consultant, but at the time Pre COVID, that Job was on call that Job was going to people's houses. And I knew I didn't want to do that with young kids. But this has opened up an entire literally the entire world. Earlier in the week, I had a workshop where I had someone from South America, I had someone in the UK and someone in Georgia. And how cool is that. And they're all extended nursing moms with the same struggles and building that community. So that they don't feel isolated anymore is so it's just been such a special experience to be a part of that.

Danielle Bettmann: 47:33

And that's it's like so specific, but yet so universal for you know, moms in that circumstance. And you're really being able to paint the picture because you've been there and you relate so deeply. And that's why it's so it's such important work because it's it is your identity, it is your life, it is your day in and day out, huge part of your currency of your relationship with your child. So it permeates every aspect of your life if you're in that stage in that season of parenting. So how would you help families maybe be able to differentiate for themselves whether they're ready to wean, or whether they need more boundaries? And what does that conversation look like?

Erin Harris: 48:18

That's a great question. So usually we start with how old they are, and how many times a day they're currently nursing, and also the motivation of why they want to. So if it is something like the burnout, that's usually when we I started trying to navigate toward the boundary-setting first because really, the boundaries have to come with weaning anyway. And it's sort of kind of the beginning stages, but it can go on and definitely what I what I find is women, once they set the boundaries, they feel like they can go longer. And the boundaries are different for each parent. So sometimes the boundary is around night, weaning or night feeding. Sometimes it's about how they nurse are asked to nurse and how long they nurse. So there's so many different ways to navigate it. But the important thing is that the parent has to figure out what works for them first, and then make that clear to to their child. But the other important aspect that I bring in and I did something you teach to is special time. So part of weaning is like you can't just not stop it and then go on your phone and replace that time with like, not you time, they still want you and I that's something that I really tried to reinforce is that they they love the milk but they also love you. And up until the weaning point or like now, if you if the milk is gone, it's because you're physically gone. And so if you tell your child that milk is leaving, or the milk is going away soon, that's going to tell them well, does that mean you're going away too? Oh, yeah. And so you have to To start slowly, it's a slow process, separating yourself from the milk and showing them, okay, I'm still here, I'm still spending time with you that special amount of time when the milk is done or front loading, have special time and then have the nursing session, but you want to start slowly replacing nursing sessions with special time. So that's, that's one of the ways and that's such an important part of it is teaching what you can replace the session with. Because otherwise, it's just a void in your life, and you want to still have that bonded connection, and it can still be love and snuggles, but with a book instead of with your boob. And even in the morning, they can come into bed, but you know, they can learn that that's just not part of that experience anymore.

Danielle Bettmann: 50:48

And, and I know that that's why our work overlaps. So intuitively, because if you are using extended nursing as your main parenting tool, there can be a sense of helplessness or feeling suffocated, or feeling like I don't know how to handle their big emotions, if I tell them no, I or I can't tell them no, because I'm walking on eggshells around the reaction. And you know, so much of that is what we experienced when we deal with a strong-willed child, regardless of the nursing experience that led them to there. And so that's, that's where not only I think your background and communication is so valuable for how you relate to families. But then you have those positive discipline tools as well.

Erin Harris: 51:34

Yeah, exactly. And that, again, was a blessing with Luca, figuring I had to figure it out, I had to figure it out with him. I don't know how to soothe you now. You took my tool. And I had to just accept that's not how he wanted to be soothed. He had some he gets very internal, but my kids are so opposite. Avery is just like an firecracker of emotion. And he goes way in. So I have to really observe him. Because if he gets quiet, that's usually means he's struggling. And I just learned, I just sit on the floor and open my arms. And I just he just needs a hug. He doesn't need a boob. He needs a hug. And same thing with Avery now that's my go to it's they still need me. And I think that's the lesson I really want to try to instill in parents who are grieving, right? Because they still need, they still want mom, even if it's not for milk, they still need that, that love and support and comfort. What I also try to teach in my courses is with a toddler, it's not our job anymore to make to stop those big cries, right? When they're babies, you want to soothe them, you stop the crying as much as possible. But you need to help them learn how to process those emotions and get through them, not stop them. So it can it can always be hindering. Right, because they Yeah, it seems easier. It calms them down. But they need to learn to be okay with big emotions and get to the other side of it. Right, right. Hard. It's not an easy process at all again, so I found you both. I actually had a thought the other day when I was thinking about preparing for this that I do kind of wonder are all extended nursers strong-willed kids? They're very determined they know what they want. And you are not going to let that go very easily. And so I I I do wonder what the overlap in that in that is. And it doesn't mean yeah, strong-willed is not like Luca is not a tantruming kid, usually. But He is stubborn. He's stubborn, but super sweet and affectionate and tells me he loves me all the time. But yeah, there was like a birthday party at school for his teacher the other day. And we were like, oh, did you sing happy birthday? And he's like, No, everyone else did, but not me. Because it's like they told him to do it. So of course he wasn't going to do it. Yeah. All right.

Danielle Bettmann: 53:59

No worries of people pleasing there.

Erin Harris: 54:01

No, no, not at all. And so it's just you have to navigate it and figure out, Okay, for this kid, what works and what works for him. And what works for her like she needs special time. She needs one on one time where the sibling rivalry starts coming in. But that was happening this weekend. And it feels like you know, especially Okay, so let's say that your extended nursery is the second kid. And the first one then once your love and attention but you're juggling that is really important to have that separate time and give not just the nursing a weaning child a special time, but the other kids too. And it can be five minutes. And it can just send that message of like I'm here. I'm paying attention to you, you matter. But it's easier said than done to. It takes practice. And it's a new tool, but it's a really, really useful one to have. At least from you, with my experience, I know what's yours, too.

Danielle Bettmann: 55:02

Yeah, yeah, and I don't know if we gave the disclaimer upfront at all, or not. But Erin did end up working together with me, through Sanity and Solutions coaching with her husband, Scott. And big emotions were one of the things that she came in with struggling with because she didn't have that tool of nursing, you know, with Luca, and he is a very, very stubborn. And so there was, you know, a piece of getting on the same page, that was a huge goal for you guys. And then I know that you were a very well researched parent, and had a lot of tools in your toolkit already. But you just really didn't like the feeling of being like a punching bag. And feeling like you just had to give everything to their needs, rather than advocating for your own. So what was that experience? Like through kind of talking that out through coaching?

Erin Harris: 55:58

Yeah, so when I came for that, so I'd known about special time through another program. But the other program really kind of was at an extreme of like, when they were upset or melting down that you just sit with them and let them feel their feelings, but my daughter would hit me and kick me and it was always if she was upset or scared, it was my fault. And she would be aggressive toward me. And I, one day was like, in the bathroom hiding from her because I was like, if, if I I'm gonna unintentionally hurt her trying to stop her from hurting me. And is yeah, those moments I'm like, Man, if only I had my boob, you know, it just was hard. But I needed about I needed to set boundaries around that, then I needed to learn and say like, how do I know when to say No, when to walk away. And, you know, we that's where you came in and helped navigate that. And she's older now too. And that makes a difference, right? Like tantruming, six year old is going to be different than a tantrum a two year old, and stay staying calm, right? It's wholeheartedly calm. It's really hard to do. But the thing I honestly, learned- learned the most from you is about the triggers. And, you know, what triggers me? Why does it trigger me and I really, really, the big one for me is sound. And that's why it was also like nursing, okay, it's quiet now. You know, in that moment of tandem nursing, it's like, they're both screaming at me. Okay, now they're not. So I got headphones are like literally, your Yeah, their plugs, ear plugs, thank you. And if they start getting rowdy at the table, and we just moved into our house is still really echoey. It's a raised floor that I'm not used to. So sometimes it's like a vacuums going and the train is going and they're yelling and playing with their plates. And now I just go and get my earplugs. And it's so much better. And I don't have that intenseness to me, because then I'm sure I have the short fuse and I can't deal. So that was that was a really, really important realization of like, I can't always change their behavior in the moment. So what can I do to change my thoughts about the behavior? And that's been really really, really helpful.

Danielle Bettmann: 58:09

Yeah, yeah, there's so much power to that, that really makes you feel like you are still in control, even though your any control over them is kind of an illusion, sometimes.

Erin Harris: 58:19

It is. It really is. And I think, you know, there are new lessons about that every once in a while, because you I think I figured that out. And then some new experience happens that I have to learn to let go in a new way, right and totally, but right now, things are like really, really good. And they, they're just, they get along so well. I'm really grateful. That's another blessing of COVID because they would never have spent as much time together as they did in COVID They're each other's best friends. They think Luke is like that's my favorite person. Like they walked out of the room the other day and they gave me like separate rooms at the same time gave each other hugs said I love you. And when cuddled on the couch was like it not every moment is like she would scream at him later, of course, because she like touched her Legos, but you know, it's still beautiful. And when those I'm trying to absorb that and take those those moments when I can

Danielle Bettmann: 59:17

Yes, I love that and I feel like a lot of families have had that experience to in good ways and bad ways. They this doesn't a whole lot of pros and cons to COVID But yeah, I think when we can see the benefits it really does help to know that like we have invested time that we're not going to get back that has paid off and that's really valuable.

Erin Harris: 59:39

It is if you don't get time back and so I, I do not regret at all you know the decision to leave work I still miss it. I still one day think like well, maybe I'll just go you know grab a class here and there but now they're just always sick. And I'm just like, I don't know how to I know they were sick for you this week to like I don't know how to have a consistent job with because I go to just in case person. So this has been saying nursing moments has been my it's been a savior for me too, though because I, I realized also during COVID that I tried working out, I lost my weight after I stopped nursing, I did all these things that did therapy, but I need mental stimulation, I love learning when I went back to school and did that for to become a lactation educator. I felt so much better. And having this even if it's just jumping on a zoom with someone for 30 minutes, it gets me out of my head and is it's so much I'm so much healthier when because I have something for me.

Danielle Bettmann: 1:00:42

Yes, that is I'm so glad that's such a good point to bring up because the word self care and what you need to have as your capacity as a parent looks so different for everyone. Yeah, and that adult stimulation piece was a huge revelation for me to understand about myself as well, where I have always chose to and needed to, and benefited from working part time as a parent, because I just I need that adult conversation, I need to be constantly challenging and growing myself and need to be using my brain. And to be frank playing with kids is under stimulating, especially when they're toddlers. And like babies, like there's not a whole lot you can engage with. And if you have any neurodivergent as a parent on top of that, it makes it even more hard to focus on things that are truly like a game that you don't even understand the roles to and you're just playing wrong or like it's just very hard. So it's such a good point to bring up and validate for others as well.

Erin Harris: 1:01:48

Yeah, take that time if you need to be and it it can be really, really helpful. Yeah, there's only so many times I could sing Old McDonald, like, I don't know how the preschool, his his teachers at preschool are so amazing. And they just seem so happy with what they're doing. And I'm like, God bless you, Amanda. That is not my cup of tea.

Danielle Bettmann: 1:02:07

So well, to wrap up, thank you for sharing your experience with coaching, it's been so cool to have you as a client and you got like extra credit, because you went through all over the family business plan videos that most clients don't end up getting to, I highly

Erin Harris: 1:02:26

I highly recommend them, they were really good, really, really useful. And I got to know you more, and your husband was in them. And I like that the family plan. That was the other part I was gonna say too, is I know, we're right. And we need to wrap up here. But that was so like Scott said he was like, it's kind of like a therapy session. And we really got solidified on like, where we want to be in a decade and how we can re re engineer that now to you know, to build to where we want to be. And yeah, so that that's been really, really good. And in terms of do we do sports? Do we do dance? Do we do nothing? But do we travel? You know, like, what? What does that look like for our lives has been really, really good. Yeah.

Danielle Bettmann: 1:03:06

And you came up with such a good feeling mission statement as well.

Erin Harris: 1:03:09

Oh, gosh, I don't know, do I have it? I don't know. I wasn't prepared for that.

Danielle Bettmann: 1:03:15

That's okay. You don't have to share it on the spot. But I just feel like it's it's such a cornerstone, now that you just, you know, have and can build from and can evolve with your family. But I do

Erin Harris: 1:03:27

I do have it. cool to say, yeah, you share it. Okay. So love, respect, kindness and play, make together our favorite place to be, though mistakes will happen day to day, we will keep trying as a team. And that came from all the different, you know, lessons in your, in your program. Kindness was huge for Avery, we always say like teamwork. And so that had to be in there. And so we just I tried to take all of these snippets in these words and make it into just a little phrase that we could, I still haven't done it, but you know, put it up on the wall and, you know, look at it and remind ourselves of what's what's our goal here as as a team and as a family. Yes,

Danielle Bettmann: 1:04:06

I love it. I hope that makes you proud.

Erin Harris: 1:04:09

It does. No, I love it. It was absolutely worth our time and money and an energy to do the program with you. And I'm grateful for it.

Danielle Bettmann: 1:04:17

Good, good. No thank you for for that vulnerability and transparency and sharing that experience. So to wrap up going back to the ways that you work with families, if you had like, you know, a pedestal have one takeaway that you want listeners to have from your journey and your work. What do you hope that they hear?

Erin Harris: 1:04:39

I hope they hear if they're an extended nurser that they're not alone. They don't have to go through this journey alone. And, you know, there, there's tools, there are tools and there are resources for you. And that when the journey ends, that You'll still the love will still be there. And it's still going to be a very, very special bond that you have forever with your child. And nothing can take that away.

Danielle Bettmann: 1:05:10

That's so beautiful. And how do moms connect with you?

Erin Harris: 1:05:14

I'm on Instagram. A lot. See me on my stories come DM me, it's @Erin.nursingmamas. And what I have for your listeners is if they want, sometimes, again, you mentioned like there's the do they want to wean? Do they not want to wean? Do they need an you know, boundaries, and sometimes they just don't know. So I have a free 1-on-1 30-minute session that they can sign up for at nursingmamas.com/failing motherhood. And just we can come chat and figure out what what your struggle is. And you know how I can help. And even if your extended nursing curious, maybe you have a 10 month old or 11 month old and you're not quite sure you want it to be over. And what that looks like we can talk about that as well. Oh, very cool.

Danielle Bettmann: 1:06:05

So needed. And thank you for doing what you do now. And for being able to share those pieces of your story and your life with other families that can benefit so much from just hearing their story and your story. It's so value in there, you're so good at you know, creating content and conversations where families could really just feel heard and seen. So that's clearly a strength of yours.

Erin Harris: 1:06:32

Thank you.

Danielle Bettmann: 1:06:33

So the last question I have to ask you that I asked every guest is how are you, the mom that your kids need?

Erin Harris: 1:06:39

Because, you know, anytime I'm frustrated with them, I have to look in the mirror, because you know, I have the same things I Avery is very both of them. Both of them have sensory issues. Shocker, I discovered my sensory issue through my children, they were always very sensitive to sounds and even the trash truck going by anything like that she needed headphones, but also the socks, the clothes, you know, when I was a kid, I could really feel in my body that the socks coming on there my feet and being uncomfortable with the same and so when she's freaking out, I can take the time that wasn't provided to me, you know, like I and be like, Okay, let's take a breath. And so I, I struggle a lot with, you know, in the moment, some moments and other times I know I'm who they need, because I have the same issues I've been through and I can I can help them through that through my experiences as well.

Danielle Bettmann: 1:07:38

Yeah, that's so valuable. And makes me think when you said earlier, I wonder if extended nursers like the kids are strong-willed kids. I bet that the parents like the moms that choose to extended nurse are also strong-willed. Moms maybe

Erin Harris: 1:07:58

well, if you say that choose to extend because I don't know that most extended nursers get to like around a year you're like yeah, let's keep going. But when you get into like two and a half, three and a half, they're like, I never expected to be here, you know, most extended nurturers think like, oh yeah, I want them to do it themselves. I want them to be able to wean on their own. But some kids just don't. They're like, I'm good. I could do this. So it can be a strong like butting of heads a little bit. But yeah, it's hard to navigate that. But yeah, choosing to extenders i i did a survey just to wrap up and tie everything together last week. Then I said like if you're an extended nurser Are you doing it because you love it currently, or because you don't know how to stop? And it was about 5050 And that's the problem is that a lot of women are just stuck because they don't know how to stop. And yeah, then they get judged for it. Because people think like, oh, you're just making your child do this. It's like, No, I could magically stop this. I would. So yeah, that's that's like I don't know.

Danielle Bettmann: 1:09:09

I don't know how I found myself here. Yeah,

Erin Harris: 1:09:11

yeah. How did this happen? I don't exactly know I never expected to. And then it's that transition mentally from letting them self-wean to taking over can be a hard a hard thing to do.

Danielle Bettmann: 1:09:24

Yep. And yeah, you deal with all of the guilt and confusion and like fear of parenting strong-willed kid too, because when you if you're dealing with big meltdowns, you're feeling the same way of like, how did I I don't know how I got here. I feel like we are a normal family with normal rules. I don't know what went wrong. Is it me? Is it them? And yeah, there's just either way, you're not alone. And there's so much hope and there are a lot of tools that can just help you feel like you do have the bond recess support both of you. And you know, you want it you have permission to advocate for both your child's needs and your own.

Erin Harris: 1:10:08

Yes, that is so, so important because it is a relationship. It has to work for both people. If it doesn't, just like any other relationship, if it's one sided, it's not going to work long term. And someone's going to burnout and it's going to be more.

Danielle Bettmann: 1:10:26

Yeah, yeah. And they can sense that they can they can feel when you don't want to be there. And certainly, exactly, yes, that might create more of that resentment that builds because in any amount of time isn't enough, because they can feel that you're only halfway there. And it's just a vicious cycle at that point.

Erin Harris: 1:10:47

Yep, exactly. Yep. Oh, so good.

Danielle Bettmann: 1:10:51

Well, again, know I knew we could talk forever. I know.

Erin Harris: 1:10:55

We went over that.

Danielle Bettmann: 1:10:57

But that's, that is what comes from these conversations. In the end, I hope that whatever a mom needed to hear is what they heard today. And they can always follow up with either one of us more after this conversation, so that they too can feel like they have the tools to create a sustainable relationship with your child long term, whatever that looks like, and whether they're strong-willed or not. So Thanks, Erin, so much for taking the time today. I really appreciate it.

Erin Harris: 1:11:23

Thank you so much for having me.

Danielle Bettmann: 1:11:26

Of course. This is so good. Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of Failing Motherhood. Your kids are so lucky to have you. If you loved this episode, take a screenshot right now and share it in your Instagram stories and tag me. If you're loving the podcast, be sure that you've subscribed and leave a review so we can help more moms know they are not alone if they feel like they're failing motherhood on a daily basis. And if you're ready to transform your relationship with your strong willed child, and invest in the support you need to make it happen. Schedule your free consultation using the link in the show notes. I can't wait to meet you. Thanks for coming on this journey with me. I believe in you, and I'm cheering you on.