A Skeptic's Take on Gentle Parenting + How to STOP Fighting and START Living with Joseph + Sarah

You are gonna be pretty hard-pressed to find more honesty than what is inside this conversation! In today's episode, I have the honor of interviewing Joseph and Sarah, my clients + parents of 6- and 21-year-old daughters. 

Together they share the shifts that made it possible to stop triggering their daughter's defense mechanism, get on the same page, and have an approach and home full of mutual respect.

Fair warning - Joseph describes himself as a blunt, "tell-it-like-it-is" kind of guy, and that is exactly what we get from him. No fluff, no sugarcoating; the real deal.
He has gone from being incredibly skeptical of gentle parenting itself, let alone my program or working with me, to being on my podcast.

This episode might speak deepest to Gen X'ers, dads, or any/all parents that were raised not to ask for help.

If your partner is skeptical of how you're trying to parent, send them this episode. 

IN THIS EPISODE, WE COVERED...

• The breaking point that made change possible
• Joseph's powerful realizations that allowed him to stop fighting with Harper
• A new way to define "gentle parenting", esp. for strong-willed kids

DON'T MISS-

• Sarah + Joseph's two LIFESAVERS for bedtime

I believe in you + I'm cheering you on.
Come say hi!  I'm @parent_wholeheartedly on Insta.
Apply to work together: parentingwholeheartedly.com/Apply

Transcript

Joseph  0:00  
Getting over myself - I guess for lack of better words - is getting past that own fighting, trusting somebody else or inviting somebody else into the relationship or even kind of opening up to your spouse, your wife, in that sense of what the hell you actually went through as a child; how you're raised, what the expectations were on you, and hence why you had the expectations you have opened my eyes to how I was trying to raise her in the same manner, but not realizing it. Then, after doing it going, "I didn't mean to do that. Why did I do that?"

Danielle Bettmann  0:43  
Ever feel like you suck at this job? Motherhood, I mean. Have too much anxiety, and not enough patience? Too much yelling, not enough play? There's no manual, no village, no guarantees. The stakes are high. We want so badly to get it right. This is survival mode. We're just trying to make it to bedtime. So if you're full of mom guilt, your temper scares you, you feel like you're screwing everything up, and you're afraid to admit any of those things out loud - this podcast is for you. This is Failing Motherhood. I'm Danielle Bettmann and each week we'll chat with a mom ready to be real, showing her insecurities, her fears, her failures and her wins. We do not have it all figured out. That's not the goal. The goal is to remind you, you are the mom your kids need. They need what you have. You are good enough, and you're not alone. I hope you pop in earbuds, somehow sneak away and get ready to hear some hope from the trenches. You belong here, friend, we're so glad you're here.

Danielle Bettmann  1:55  
Hey, it's Danielle. You are gonna be pretty hard pressed to find more honesty than what is inside this conversation. In today's episode, I have the honor of interviewing Joseph and Sarah, a family that I had the chance to come alongside and support and work with over last winter. Fair warning - Joseph describes himself as a blunt, "tell it like it is" kind of guy, and that is exactly what we get from him today. No fluff, no sugarcoating; the real deal. I think you'll appreciate the way that he says what others are thinking, maybe other dads or other Gen X parents. So he has gone from being incredibly skeptical of gentle parenting itself, let alone my program or working with me, to being on my podcast. There is truly nothing more fulfilling than getting to recap and showcase a client's full transformation on a platform like this. I can't wait for you to hear it. In this conversation, we talk about the ways that they've been able to get on the same page, the hacks that they found that were a lifesaver for bedtime, and how much they have changed and grown and what that looks like. Finally, improving their daughter's behavior like nothing else they tried did. So if your partner is skeptical of what you are doing, send them this episode. The way that they describe their mentality for parenting now, at the end of this episode is so well said and inspiring. So here is my conversation with Joseph and Sarah.

Danielle Bettmann  3:40  
Welcome to Failing Motherhood. My name is Danielle Bettmann. Today's episode I am joined by previous clients Sarah and Joseph. Thank you guys so much for taking time to join me on the show. It means so much. I feel like when we very first met, I knew you're either going to be an awesome success story, or I would never hear from you again.

Joseph  4:01  
Pretty much, sums it up well.

Danielle Bettmann  4:06  
So, welcome. Go ahead and give a quick intro to my listeners. Who are you? Who's in your family? And what do you remember about parenting 6 to 9 months ago? Did you ever feel like you were failing?

Sarah  4:21  
So I am Sarah and my husband Joseph and we have a little girl, Harper who is seven. Then Joseph has a daughter who is almost 21 now, so definitely a lot of dynamics in our household of the age gap and figuring out how to handle it. Especially when we started this, you know, a child in college and one trying to figure out where we were going, being six at the time. And we were just really kind of at our wits end. It was very hard, very challenging every day, every week you just weren't sure how you were going to get out and not continue to just yell at her or have her yell at us - slamming doors, all kinds of stuff to where it was like, how do we work together as a family so that we can move positively?  It was just super challenging and I can't thank you enough for getting us to the point we are today.

Joseph  5:16  
Yeah, let's be honest. It was hell. It was hell. You're going through it - you're fighting with the kid, you're pulling your hair out. You weren't knowing what to do. You felt like you're failing at every turn of events because everything you tried, that you remembered from your childhood that worked for you, isn't working for them. Then you're possibly like running into a brick wall and going, well, if I run harder, maybe I'll push through. That's how I describe it.

Sarah  5:45  
Yeah, I mean, and I had looked at all kinds of things. I had read books, I had done other podcasts. I was trying anything I could do to figure out you know, what systems would work and what I thought would work best. Okay, let's try routine. Let's try this. Let's try that. And it just wasn't getting us anywhere. It felt like it was getting worse. And I think I mentioned it on our first call. The thing that really broke the camel was when she asked me, "why did I love her if she was so bad?" That's when it was like we've got to do something, we cannot continue to live like this.

Danielle Bettmann  6:25  
I remember that. I do. 

Sarah  6:28  
Still breaks my heart. 

Danielle Bettmann  6:29  
Yeah. So understandable. And so much more prevalent than you think, and it's not because you weren't trying. It's not because of a lack of good intentions. It's not because of the just being you know, really carefree. You had exhausted every resource you'd come across. I mean, the most effort and energy thrown into parenting that you can, and it feels like if that was your reality, what conclusions can we come to?

Joseph  7:04  
And you'd get moments of clarity. Like, almost like somebody that's going through like Alzheimer's is the kid would go crazy and then all sudden, you have a moment of clarity where you'd go, Hey, do XYZ, boom, boom, boom, it's done. And then 5 seconds later, screw you, who are you? I'm gonna fight you on every turn of the events like, what? What's going on there? Yeah, I mean, like, I think that question came in, like, that moment of clarity as you get in trouble, where it's just like, oh, hell, I am really just fighting on everything. Why? And then five seconds later, right back to the same attitude. I'm sure everybody listening to this is probably, oh, that's my life. That's exactly what the hell I'm going through in it. Yeah, it sucks,  but we've come pretty far. 

Danielle Bettmann  7:57  
We don't want to tell the story too quickly. We got to save some good stuff for the end. So don't give it too much away. I mean, stick with what you feel like was the story you were telling yourself or the conclusions you had come to? What had you tried? What did you feel like was necessary at that point, I mean, just really speak to your mindset around parenting, prior to kind of coming across our meeting.

Sarah  8:22  
I mean, Joseph and I have a very different setup than most families. He works in the evenings, but he's home. So he's kind of up and down, and then I work more during the daytime. So there were lots of nights that it was just her and I for dinner, for bedtime, and it was just a constant, okay, we're gonna try a schedule, we're gonna try, you know, hey, you have this much time to eat and then we'll move into something fun and then we'll do this and, you know, trying to set that routine of, okay, it's bedtime. So that means we need to brush your hair, brush our teeth, get pajamas on, like, just making it very simple. Not having a whole lot of extra things from it. And I, you know, I work in a nursing home and dealing with a therapy department, so I understand with geriatric patients, we want to give very simple like, one step commands, you know, like you don't overload them, but even that it was like, nothing. She was like, no, I'm not - and it wasn't an even like, she'd go do one task and then forget the next. It was a defiant, I'm not doing that. I'm not going, I'm not doing it, you know, screaming, and then I'm upset, you know, and not wanting to take time to go, let's just let's do anything. Let's go do it together. It was just a constant. No. And then to the point where there were times where Joseph would have to come up on his break and I'd be like, I need you to step in because I can't do this. She's slamming doors at me. Whatever. Like I'm at the point where I'm almost in tears. I need your help, because we're not getting anywhere, but it didn't matter whether we did the chore chart, you know, the reward chart, anything. Nothing seemed to really help and then there were days where we have a nanny that comes three days a week. And there were days that  would be like, she was perfect. She did everything and then all of a sudden, it's me. And she's like, I'm not doing anything. And I'm like, okay. Can you do one thing for me?

Danielle Bettmann  10:16  
How do you not take that personally?

Sarha  10:18  
Yeah, I'm like, okay, what is it with me? You know, and so it was such a headache, beating your head against the wall. Like, I don't know what else to try. I don't know what else to do. I've tried to make it fun. I've tried to, you know, do it with you. I've tried to say, okay, if we do this, then we can watch a movie or we could do like, it didn't matter what we offered. If she didn't want to do it, she wouldn't do it.

Joseph  10:43  
Yes, there took the very last gentle parenting approach that is so common these days, the past 10 years, whatever you want to phrase this. Now I take the like, 60s, 70s parents approach of I'll beat the hell out of you until you default into what I've asked you to do. And so she will try her way, and then obviously, she'd beat her head against the wall and Harper would scream and fight back. And I would come up on break and beat the hell out of the kid until we all lost and that was the reality - nobody freaking won. Everybody walks. I was upset that I'd reverted to my father, my upbringing, beating my child, my kid was upset that she was getting beat. Like that was reality. We're gonna do that every couple days. And then she'd be with Nancy the next day. Perfect Angel. She'd be with the grandparents for days- it was like, oh, ok, what the hell? Why? We're Mom and Dad you're with us, why aren't you listening to us?

Danielle Bettmann  11:45  
Oh, my gosh, so defeating. So defeating. And I appreciate that level of just transparency and honesty that you paint that picture with, because it really does feel like when you are that desperate, in that low of like a vicious cycle, nobody else is. Everybody else has it figured out. Nobody else is having problems with their kid like you are. Clearly you are failing something so important. I mean, like, you can't help but like spiral personally, you know, be at each other's throats about it. It's so stressful. 

Sarah  12:22  
And it was, it was so hard to even see like, not even just with, you know, our parents and Nancy, but with, you know, when it's like she would go to church, she was great. When she would go to her homeschool program. She was great. And you'd see her with other kids. And you're like, you can do it. Like, why when we're here? And like, what is it about these four walls with us that just, you know, and I know, you know, it's like you've read things all the time where it's like, well, they're more comfortable with you, so they act out more. And I'm like, ok, well, we've got to figure out a way to tone this down. Because we're not living cohesively and this has got to be better.

Danielle Bettmann  12:58  
Yeah. So, Joseph, before we get too much further on, I would love to hear your perspective of gentle parenting, aside from like our work together, but what were your skeptical hesitations? With gentle parenting?

Joseph  13:15  
I'm 42. I was born in 82. I was brought up very much in a single family home my mom and dad divorced when I was one or two years old kind of deal. So, I had my mom raising me and she was working her ass off to support me and I get in trouble and you come home and you'd get the hell beat out of you, literally. And so that gentle parenting is not getting the hell beat out of me. It's just, hold on, it's okay. We'll figure it out. Well, here, here's a piece of candy, if you brush your teeth, that kind of mentality or let's make it a chore chart, and let's make it fun and give her a reward for it all. No, I asked you to do something. Do it because I said do it. And that's the meat I guess for us older guys, and maybe it's different for the girls? That's how it was, you did what you were told to do because you were told to do it. Or otherwise you literally get the hell beat out of you. I literally remember going to the ER because I got the hell beat out of me by my stepdad,  like that's the upbringing I had. So the whole 'I asked her three times to do it', well, she's going to do it one way or the other, or we may end up in the ER. And then I went -I'm repeating the cycle like this is not healthy. I didn't like it. I'm not doing it. And I have a 21 year old as she said,  I didn't have to do it with her, but I wasn't in that parenting 24/7.  Me and her mother got divorced, so I had her every other weekend. I was fun dad. So fun dad gets good behavior. So it's just a whole different perspective with Harper and beating my head against the wall was enough, like screw it,  whatever the hell you want to try. Let's try it.

Sarah  15:03  
Well, and I think that's one of the key points too is that it was one of the struggles we were having is he kept saying, you know, his older daughter, he didn't have these struggles. She didn't do this. She didn't do that. She didn't do that, you know, and I kept saying, you didn't have her full time during this whole phase. You got to have her for two, you know, 48 hours every other week. You didn't care what she did. She may have acted out much, but then within 24 hours, she was gone. And it took two weeks before you had her again. So you had long forgotten what it was like, you weren't in it with no relief. And I kept saying, like Harper's not a bad kid, you're just stuck in this struggle 24/7, you  don't get out of it. We don't have anywhere to send her for two weeks to come back to us to be fun parents.

Joseph  15:53  
Maybe that's what we should start, Danielle - a camp where we just send them to you for two weeks and then we get them back every other weekend.

Danielle Bettmann  15:58  
There we go. That would solve all the problems.

Joseph  16:02  
Yeah, like dog training with you.

Danielle Bettmann  16:07  
Isn't that like Cesar Milan's approach? He takes them to a camp? 

Joseph  16:10  
Yeah, perfect.

Sarah  16:13  
The child whisperer.

Danielle Bettmann  16:14  
Well, and I'm sure you quickly realize that your girls have different temperaments too. Same situation, different results, different reactions, different triggers different levels of intensity with knowing what they want and fighting for it. And that sets you up for another whole challenge as well.

Joseph  16:37  
Yeah, I think what Sarah and I butted heads with at the very beginning with the obstinate behavior, as I call it, was our mentalities I guess, more than her obstinance was, and this drove Sarah crazy before we even had Harper, is children are meant to be seen not heard.

Sarah  17:01  
And I said, I'm not raising my child that way. Yeah, you will have a voice and she will be able to say what she wants. And you know, I'm paying for it now, but...

Danielle Bettmann  17:12  
Asked and answered.

Sarah  17:14  
I have gotten what I wanted. But I just remember there were so many times, like with my stepdaughter, that you would ask her a basic thing, like, what do you want for dinner tonight? And it was like, I don't know. You know, you'd list do you want Italian, do you want this, do you? I don't know. I don't know. I mean, we took her to Disney World for a week when she was like, 13. What was your favorite part today? I don't know. Come on, have some opinions. Have a thought process.  So I mean, I have heard, I have worked on it. She can't stand my questions, but I still ask them.  I even do it with Harper because I'm like, I want you to be able to articulate what you did or what you want. Or you know, you may not always get what you want. But hey, what do you think sounds good for dinner tonight? There are many times she'll throw out crab legs. And I'm like, it's not happening tonight. But I appreciate that you have an opinion.

Danielle Bettmann  18:05  
She is exactly who she tells you she is and you love her for it. I love it. So what led you to me? If you remember? And then what hesitations did you have with working together?

Sarah  18:19  
So, I had read books, I had listened to some other podcasts, and I just happened upon your podcast. And I had listened to a couple of them. And I before even asking Joseph I sent an email and said, "hey, I want to do this." And because I think on your email, it says like, it'll take like a couple days or whatever to respond. And so I was like, okay, cool. I got a couple of days to talk about it with him. And then I think within like, five hours, I had an email and I was like, oh, that came quicker than I thought. So then I had to tell Joseph, I'm like, ok, here's what I've done, and I really want to sit down and talk with her and just kind of see a little bit more about the program you know, and how this would work and he was like, I'm not doing it. This is dumb. And we had to work through some emotions of getting to the consultation.

Danielle Bettmann  19:16  
Fair. What was your side of things, Joseph?

Joseph  19:18  
Exactly what she said. I think it goes back to the way I call myself older now, hell that sucks. The older parents were raised is mental health and therapists and having that outside perspective was - you don't fail that hard. If you do, you certainly don't buy the general public and invite somebody in to help you. That's a big no, no, like, stay the hell away or stay as far as away from that as you can. And so that even a thought of it was like I don't know this weird woman and you want to bring her in and have a look through our lives and tell us what what the hell we're doing wrong? Screw that. Let's look at her life and see what she's doing wrong. Like, it literally ate away and everything is I thought of me. And I'm just like, nope. But I love my wife. I love my family. So, screw it. We'll try it. We'll figure it out. And if it is what it is, I can hold that in my back pocket every few years and go, I told you so.

Danielle Bettmann  20:22  
Fair. Silver lining, I don't know.

Joseph  20:29  
Y'all do it to us. I was looking for when they do it back to y'all.

Danielle Bettmann  20:34  
Anything to add to that, Sara, on your end?

Sarah  20:37  
No. I mean, because I mean, I remember sitting through the consultation going, oh, my gosh, she's never going to want to work with us. He's never going to agree to this. But we've got to do something, something has to change, you know. And like I said, I had done books, I had done podcasts, I had researched, I had tried, I didn't know where else to go. And that's pretty much what I kind of told him. Finally I think I got to the point where I said, you can either do it with me or not. But I'm doing this, like it had gotten kind of to that point, because I know that's one of your questions on the thing to where it's like, is your partner doing it with you? And I'm like, Yes. And then I'm like, maybe not. I have to do something, you know. And so he finally he was like, I will, I will do it, I will commit to it. And there was still a little bit of, you know, reservation even as like the first week or so went along. But he, you know, there are many times that he actually listened to the videos and did this stuff before I did this with work schedules. It was it's easier for him sometimes. And he'd be like, I'm already done, are you? And I'm like, not yet, working on it. But I'm like, but I appreciate your commitment level.

Danielle Bettmann  21:47  
Yes. Well, so was there anything I said that compelled you to kind of cross over that edge and say, let's do this together? Was there anything about meeting me or hearing about the group that, you know, actually convinced you that this might work? Or, you know, this is what's aligned for us?

Sarah  22:09  
Yeah, for me, I think it was, firstly, he didn't really want to get in the group setting and talk to other people. And he was like, look, I don't mind doing this. But I just think the groups are kind of silly.  I think I was interested in both. But I really think I was more interested in the group session, just being able to communicate and talk with other people. Because, as you said, so many times you think you're the only one, everybody else is fine, or you know, just like Harper, she's fine when she's with other kids. So if there are other strong-willed kids in that group, they may be fine there. But when they go home, what their parents aren't telling us is that they're dealing with it. And it was like, I just need to know that we are not crazy, and that we can get through this, but having that, you know, solidarity with somebody of we're not alone, you know, and being able to talk through it and work through it. So I think that was what I was more excited about. I do know, as we kind of went through the class, he ended up liking the group session more than doing the week, weeks of work. Like that was where he enjoyed getting to talk in here. I think it was like the first or second call. I was like, oh, look at him. Are you chiming in? Like not only is he listening, he's contributing like this is awesome. 

Joseph  23:24  
Well, yeah, cuz you you're Miss Quietness, sit back in the back and just read and listen. I'm more of the outgoing personality. So yeah, the group, yeah, just like I said, the therapy, the inviting somebody into the personal life and kind of introducing all of our failures or mistakes over issues to somebody outside of the family goes against it, doing that on a much broader level in a group setting with 10 or 15 people, they're supposedly having the same issue. Again, I don't know you from Adam. I'm paying you 1000s of dollars for you to tell me what the hell I'm doing wrong. And then oh, we're going into a magical group with 15 other people that are supposedly having the same issue. It's just a hell of a lot for this skeptical guy to believe and buy into with the way I was raised. And so I was like, ok, I'll listen to the little thingies. I'll do the little lessons and we'll talk about it, we'll try and figure out what applies, what doesn't apply. But the group's just seemed a little out there and then I think they were Fridays and my memory serves and that's kind of my day to my yard work and I usually listen to the podcasts and music and kind of just you know, zone out,  relax and kind of catch up on my week. So I'd join in and I wouldn't go on camera, just sit there and listen for a couple of times. And then somebody, one of the other guys or women said something that caught my attention. I can't remember what it was and I was like, that's exactly what I went through just a day ago. And that broke the mold like okay, this is not bullshit.

Danielle Bettmann  25:03  
Love it. I mean, I really want your like realistic first, first person experience take of how your perception changed, because it's very hard to go against 40 ish years of conditioning, and a whole bunch of background and your subconscious wiring, and there's a lot that creates the societal expectations of even your own perception of yourself and your identity as parents and like how you see your kid and to overcome that, and be vulnerable, and to feel safe to be vulnerable and to actually buy in, and to give it 100%, and be convicted of it, and confident in it in three short months, is a lot to ask of someone. So that's why I'm genuinely like sitting in this with you. Because I know there are a lot of families where the mom has probably found me months ago, and is scared to bring it up and have a hard conversation because they know, the skepticism is there. And they know it's real. And they know that they can't just like, you know, flower over it like no, it's gonna be fine. Just trust me and trust her and like, it's gonna be great. Do you have a lot of real life concerns and hesitations? That cannot just be like, washed away by like, no, it's fine. It's just, you know, several $1,000 We'll just try it and, you know, give it a little try. That's not what this is.

Joseph  26:38  
I told you in one of the classes that a lot of stuff hits it, nail on the head for women. And they, they can buy into it. I hate to say there is a difference between men and women. But there is I mean, mentally, physically everything. There's a difference in our brain chemistry, that the way you talk to them, the way you've aligned your classes, that's your target audience - us guys who sit back and we're going, I smell the bullshit from back here. This doesn't feed into what I was brought up with. This doesn't feed into how I was raised. We're meant to be protectors. We're meant to be all encompassing, all knowing in no matter what happens, don't break that shell. That's what guys are meant to be. And that's how, guys at that point in time were raised. I don't know about today, because I've got two girls. So it's a lot for us as dads now to let down that shell, I met a couple in our groups and some of them were sticking with me right on the outside like, okay, and then I'd chime in as they're finally getting comfortable and say something and then all sudden you see two or three like oh, yeah, yeah, same damn thing, yeah, like, it doesn't help us to sit back and just keep our mouth shut. We got to let loose and let the other dads in so they know what the hell's going on. Otherwise, nobody's making progress 

Danielle Bettmann  28:06  
100 %, yeah, I mean, it has to be across the board buy in, I mean, there still is value in a mom doing it for herself, for you know, the peace of mind of doing her due diligence and for having a lot less of that helplessness feeling. But there's still going to be a missing piece. If the her partner is not hearing the same thing, at the same time, using the same language having the same approach ESP, and coming across with that consistency to their kid, there's still going to be a gap between how they react to each parent or there's still going to be a gap between how their behavior is based on their relationship with each parent specifically and differently. So what pushed you over the edge?Because I know when you met me, you thought I was a hacky podcast hosts and just be a little bit of a scammer, and you were really understandably kind of hard on me, initially when we met. So was it kind of just like a blind trust in Sara's judgment that pushed you over the edge?

Joseph  29:13  
Yeah, completely. I mean, I remember that first consultation was - I had found a lady and I can't remember her name at this point in time. But I listened to a couple of her episodes. 

Sarah  29:24  
We had read one of her books and you had really liked her book and it was on strong children, but it was more like in a school setting and how to really kind of work through some school stuff, but some of you know kind of at home, but a lot of like school studying and stuff and it was a lot more older strong-willed children. He really liked what she had done.

Joseph  29:44  
Yeah, so I asked you about her and you like I had no clue and I'm like yeah, I smell the scare from here. Like it was like for my memory it was like a five time PhD and all this like big, big name crap and is like okay, in the book really made sense, and Sara kept going, listen to her podcast, listen to her podcast, and I never did. I was like ok, if you like it -  there's trust there. We had the consultation. It is what is it, it's I don't even know what we paid for it. But I'm like, we're not scraping the bottom of the barrel, we had the money, I could throw it away and burn it. I won't say it didn't matter, but I could afford to lose it. I'm taking a risk to trust my wife, and so I did. Would I have kicked her in the butt if it all failed? Probably, I told you so like I said, but I wasn't gonna be kicked out of my house if I lost the money and wasted it. So it was more of blind faith, trust the wife, her opinion and she's never led me astray before. So that helped. 

Sarah  30:49  
I would not have lived it down if it had not gone well. But just after listening to things, and, you know, like I said, doing my research and due diligence on all kinds of other areas. I thought we've got to do something. And here we go.

Danielle Bettmann  31:03  
Was there anything in particular that really spoke to you that gave you that gut feeling to trust your own intuition? Because you knew that your  marriage is like on the line now with this decision? I mean, we can joke about it, but you know, yeah, to a certain point, there's, there's a level of seriousness to that.

Sarah  31:19  
Yeah. I mean, just kind of hearing, listening to things, hearing things and then, knowing that I had listened to other books, and I liked things, but nothing that I had really researched had an interactive thing. And even if it was just interactive with you, and not with the group, something where I could come and say, hey, this is what happened. What do I do? Because that was the thing with the book. Like, I liked the book that we listened to, which is why I had him listen to it. But if it was like, ok, great. I know what they did in this situation. And if that situation ever comes up, I know what to do. Ok, great. What about all these other ones that I'm currently living in? Like, I need more feedback. Then there was another book you referenced on our consultation, and I cannot remember right now. But I even listened to it about like negotiations and stuff. I'm realizing like, no, we're not negotiating. And that's one of the things I learned even through the classes, like, I'm here to give you choices. And I'm here to let you have some freedom. But there are things that are not negotiable, and we're doing it. But it was just one of those things like I, I just needed. I am very much in that visual kinesthetic learning, and not having feedback was, and like I said, I hadn't really seen anything else or liked anything else that really allowed that feedback to where, and that's what I knew I needed. I needed to be able to say, hey, what do we do here?

Joseph  32:50  
Yeah, and I think that was a big one, because I checked into the other lady, I can't remember her name. I emailed her, and her agent responded, like, oh, you want to have a group setting? It'd be like 150,000 dollars for her to come out and talk to you, and I'm like, okay, that's one time about 150 grand. This is three months for like three grand or something, and this is a give the wife that feedback, somebody to bounce ideas off of. Even if it's her only bouncing ideas, she can come back and go, well, Danielle said, we should try this. And then we could talk about it. And we could have something to bounce off of, even if I didn't buy into you fully at first. It gave her somebody to bounce her ideas off of, somebody to give her a different perspective.

Danielle Bettmann  33:34  
You've got to get out of your own head. 

Sarah  33:38  
Absolutely, and that was, that's the biggest thing. I mean, my head was done, no where else to go. I'm like, I tried everything that I can think of, and I got nothing.

Danielle Bettmann  33:49  
Yes, I've looked at this in every way, shape, form and angle I possibly can, and I got nothing. So you know that you need something. It's just what at that point. And then you know, feeling like, you have to have that level of troubleshooting. Because not every kid needs every tool. Not every tool works for every kid. Not every script works in every situation. You know, everything is not black and white. It's extremely nuanced. There's always a million variables at any one given point. And it is not clear what to do in every unique circumstance. You find yourself in with your kid at their age with this temperament. And this, you know, lead up and this response in this patient's level and you know, all of the other contingencies, books are great. There's the whole internet at our fingertips, and it's all amazing, except it just falls short and you stay stuck and then you beat yourself up because you clearly you should have figured this out by now. You have read everything there is a subject and you still can't do it. So it's your fault. Yeah, that does wonders for your psyche.

Sarah  34:57  
Well, and one of the things that I know it came out in one of the classes that we did was like I said, I work with geriatrics. I am so patient with them, like I can get on your level, I can convince you, we can do all kinds of things. I can lift you up then I'm like, what is wrong with my kid? Why can't her and I get on the same?

Danielle Bettmann  35:17  
Yes. So frustrating.

Joseph  35:20  
Well, I think the biggest thing we wanted was like, and you'll probably ask this question. So sorr to skip ahead, but was checking out each other's kind of breaking point, right where we see her start to lose her shit, and I would step in, and vice versa, instead of getting past that point, and then the other person stepping in and trying to bring it back in and calm Harper down, they calm the wife down and do everything else to calm me down, is hitting it before you snap and then tag out  out and go, hey, you both need five minutes, go have it. Then when you're done with your five minutes, come talk to dad, mom has had enough. Let's see what's going on because I wasn't here. And vice versa. And you get a totally different perspective after that, without reaching that boiling point where they're both just screaming at each other, or slamming doors and Harper is just yelling  'you're the worst parent in the world. I hate you.' Which is where you would get to, right?

Sarah  36:21  
Yeah, and that goes back to the buy in from both parents is because that's one of the things we did learn was realizing like, hey, I need to tap out it's your turn. Like, you get to come in or, hey, I'm better at this section. Let me let me tap in and you got to take a breather. But both of us knowing kind of aware of that, but also kind of what we were focusing on what direction so that whether we were going in, we both knew what we were going to try to do. You may just hear it better and that's where that buy in from both is so crucial.

Danielle Bettmann  36:52  
Because yeah, you can take out, but you may not trust the other person to understand what you're trying to do. And you know, when you pass over that baton, you might be asking for an explosion, it might be a complete bust. And everything you just tried to do then backfires. And for either handoff, when you don't have that shared ESP because you can't, you know, hey pause your melt down for a second. Let's go like regroup, have some sort of like action plan, list out our game, you know, plays and then get back into real time, you got to be able to already have had that figured out. And then it's not the time to figure out what are we doing? How are we handling this behavior right now. So that's impossible to do if you don't have the all of that communication leading up for much more success at that point of that handoff. And then just you know, also not beating yourself up and giving yourself permission and not coming to the conclusion that you're a failure. And you know, all the other things that plague you with that weight in that moment that can make a go wrong.

Joseph  38:03  
Yeah, I don't even need to know exactly where that conversation was headed. We just need to have a mutual game plan of how we handle those blowups overall. It's our ultimate goal. Our goal is for her to listen, calm, give proper responses, not be rude, that kind of thing. And so I don't care what the conversation was about, I don't need to know what the conversation was about. I don't need to know what you were asked to do or told to do - and your responses when I walked up and tagged in, were wrong. So let's take a timeout, and then we'll talk about that. And then we'll move forward from there. Just stop that progression of the anger, the frustration, and that constant obstinates is I think a biggie for us. Because when she gets to that point where I don't have to do it, I'm not going to do it, I don't have to no matter what you say, I can't force her to do it. No matter how hard I beat her rearend, I can't force her to do it. She can fight me all she wants. And that's a hard freakin lesson to learn, until you make it make sense and it finally clicks in your brain. You're like,  I can hit her with a two by four and she's still just sit there and go. Haha, that hurt but I'm not doing it. And that is our kids. Like I'd never hit her with a two by four, but I could and she'd just sit there looking at me and go, I'm not doing it.

Danielle Bettmann  39:36  
It's humbling though, to really feel like you cannot overpower this other person.

Sarah  39:42  
Well, and especially when they're so little, they're so little and helpless in so many other ways. But when they want to dig their heels in like there's nothing and you're like there's got to be something that can happen. Something has to you know, get you in line and especially like Joseph and I are very different. I am more of the rule follower and okay you told me to do it I'm gonna go do it and he is more of the defiant and so many times I look at him and I'm like, this is you. I am fighting with you.

Danielle Bettmann  40:10  
You got it from someone.

Sarah  40:15  
This is not me. All the questions -  me.

Joseph  40:21  
Yeah, and she'll say hey Harper go take out the trash. Why? Because it's full. But why? Because it stinks. But why? Because we put trash it. But why do we put trash in it? Because it's the trash can, that drives me crazy. It's like just do it because I said to, but that's her. And then that I'm not doing it is me, and I completely get it after the class and getting over myself, I guess for lack of better words, is getting past that own fighting, trusting somebody else or inviting somebody else into the relationship or even kind of opening up to your spouse, your wife, and that sense of what the hell you actually went through as a child, how you're raised, what the expectations were on you. And hence why you have the expectations you have opened my eyes to how I was trying to brace her in the same manner, but not realizing it. And then after doing it going, I didn't mean to do that. Why did I do that? And have the roll back and go, hey, I didn't mean to do that kid. I'm sorry. Here's what we should do.

Danielle Bettmann  41:35  
That is not easy. Not easy at all. And your kid is so lucky that you would go to that length of humbling yourself going through that hard work of kind of finding answers to the questions you didn't really want to ask. And then working on yourself enough to realize what is hers to work on and what is yours to work on. And owning that. I mean, most people opt out if we're being honest, about  that level of work.

Joseph  42:08  
I tried.

Sarah  42:11  
He tried real hard.

Danielle Bettmann  42:21  
Here's the deal. If your child is sensitive and smart, yet loses it is clingy or aggressive with you at home, they can go zero to 60 over the smallest things like when they just don't get their way. Nothing changes their mind, and they can't seem to get over it. And you know what you're doing isn't working, and siblings are starting to suffer. You could go to therapy yourself, and take your child to therapy and follow all the experts and ask your family and friends for advice, and take a course and set up a calm down corner and read all the parenting books and still feel defeated. it's time. it's time to learn the missing pieces of invaluable insight about their temperament that unlocks compassion in you and understanding of how to work with the way they're wired. It's time to communicate in new ways, like a hostage negotiator to get through to them and cultivate cooperation with confidence. And it's time to eliminate the behaviors that are working to gain control and attention at the root, rather than playing Whack a Mol.  Calm and Confident - the masterclass is for you. There you will master the kind and firm approach your strong willed child needs, without crushing their spirit or walking on eggshells. In this free training, I share the four critical Keinen firm scripts that unlock cooperation in every situation, how to eliminate behaviors at the root and the path to solidifying the open and honest relationship that you want to have with your child down the road. So go to parentingwholeheartedly.com/confident to access this exclusive on demand training immediately. That's parentingwholeheartedly.com/confidant That link will be in the show notes.

Danielle Bettmann  44:21  
Okay, well we've been teasing it the whole time. So what's the payoff? Right? Like what outcomes have you been able to get and maintain?  What has changed for you? What improved?

Sarah  44:33  
I would have to say I mean, it's been an all around improvement. I mean, it's hard to really touch on one area because we went from probably having 20 or so blow ups a week to I mean, there may be a week where we don't have any or one and sometimes it's not even that big of a blow up where you're just like, Okay, that was a minor one or I know I'm just going to walk away  and sometimes we do fall into our old ways - you forget some of the trainings or how we're supposed to respond or, you know, you're just trying to argue or you're trying to push back. And instead of me just saying, walking away or just ignoring her, because we have found that half the time when she's really being defiant, and if you just ignore her and don't respond, like, she'll quit. But, I mean, it's just amazing to not have those and to have more of a system and just really setting our boundaries of, you know, oftentimes with her and I, when it's just us on dinner times, we may watch a TV show, you know, and so sometimes it's like, okay, instead of setting the timer, like, okay, you have 30 minutes for dinner, okay, we have one episode, when the episodes done, the TV's off, we're then gonna go for a walk, we're gonna do something, we're gonna play a game, you know, and then it's like, she's fine. We don't argue we don't take forever. We don't majority of the time. It's just ok. We're good to go. You know, and just really kind of knowing how to set those boundaries and saying, this is a non negotiable. Okay, we've got some flexibility on this one. I mean, I just can't describe that we don't really have slamming doors, she'll even say now on our own, hey, I need five minutes. Okay, go take your time. Now there are some times she tries to do it in front of us. And I'm like, ok, well, if you need five minutes, you need to go find another room. But you're welcome to your five minutes. I mean, but it really is amazing to kind of see that she is now more self aware of, hey, I just need time or hey, give me a minute. Let me think on that. Because so often, we're giving them too many choices. We're giving them like, oh, you open up the fridge, what do you want for lunch? Instead of saying, Do you want this? Or that? Hey, we're gonna have this snack, do you want this or that? Because it does take forever, because they're running through 100 things that it could be instead of just saying Goldfish, or do you want Cheez Its or whatever, whatever it is, like, here are your two choices. And then that way, we also don't go through the fight of, oh, I want ice cream. Well, no, that's not an acceptable choice. Here are your two choices. And I have found so much of you know, just trying to pre plan, let her know what's coming, making her more involved on things has really, really been a game changer for us. And just remembering you know, when need be, like the other day, Joseph called and I was at work and he was at his wits end, and it was one of the bad ones. We hadn't had one like that in a long time.  We got off the phone and I just quickly sent him a text and like, ok, remember what we're supposed to do. Make it fun, make her take a break, you go take a break. You know, we have our family agreement hanging up on the fridge, and we refer to it often. Hey, is that on the family agreement? And she was like, no. Okay, so what are we supposed to do? You know, it's just constantly reinforcing it. But I mean, I can't even describe how peaceful life has become. And those in between moments instead of waiting anxiously for the next the next one.

Joseph  48:06  
You know, I don't remember what the hell that one was about. But yes, she was pushing everybody - she was pushing me and doing it on purpose. You could almost see the smirk and her face when she was making this me mad, and she got me, she got me good and I was over it. And she still will do it every once a while just to see if she still can I think. It's just that brain chemistry, that mentality, whatever word you want to use to describe these kids is I think they enjoy it. I'm a smartass. I'm sarcastic and that is who I am. I will argue with you and fight with you just for fun, with a smile on my face, because I can see how much it's aggravatting you, so I know that's me. But yeah, she gets me bad, but yeah, we're like she said we come from, 20-30 a week easily four to five a day to one a week in two weeks. Maybe? And they're like, miniscule there. Okay, go take a five minute break. Or you didn't eat enough today, you need something more to eat. You're just being grumpy because you're hangry and the wife gets hangry that seems to be the majority of hers is getting that hangry little 'I didn't eat enough and so I'm starving' because at once I was more interested in playing, watching TV, doing my Legos, whatever she was doing instead of eating. It's typically after breakfast like midday or after lunch midday is when that fighting starts. I'm like you're hungry. No, no. Ok, Daddy's going to have this. You want some? Or yeah, yeah, I want that. Feed the kids and after taking the classes that that mentality, that not feeding into it, not beating your head against the wall because she's beating your head against the wall. I think was the biggest change for me is I'm not, I can't remember the word you use, but it is like, we're not butting heads like two bulls trying to see if they push each other out of the ring or two sumo wrestlers.  She can push against me all you want but I'm not moving, this is non negotiable. This is what we talked about, you know the rules and if you want to keep fighting then go take five minutes in a room and we'll talk about it afterwards when you've calmed down. Until that point, I'm done and like I think I talked about this last week in the meeting or yesterday is that non action that has the biggest response, when we just don't play into it. She looks at us and she's like, but you're not playing back into it. I'm not getting the response I want. I'm not getting that the action from you guys. And we'll go on making dinner, having our conversation, walk outside, play with the dog. Five minutes later, she comes out just like, I'm sorry. And then she'll go right back to doing whatever the heck we were doing. And it's like, Who the hell is this kid? A dramatic change.

Sarah  51:00  
Yeah. And I think one of the things also, because we've gone through this, and we've learned some other ways to work with her and kind of set us up for success from the beginning. We're now not stressing and having the anxiety about when is the next blowup going to happen? Where is it going to happen? How bad is it going to be? What's going to happen? We're able to be more attuned into her to recognize - are you hungry? Or did you not sleep well last night? Or, you know, you've been super active today? Are we just tired? Like, instantly, you know, because about a week ago, we were playing a game out on the back porch, and she wanted to play it. Iit's a game that takes a bunch of different rounds. So you're constantly shuffling cards and redoing it again. And after about the third round, you could just look at her and you're like, do you not want to play anymore? Like you look really tired. And instead of being like, hey, no, we said this, we're playing it we're doing it. It was like, do you just want to go chill before bedtime? Because we're not waiting for the next blow up.  She was already ready for bed. It was like, ok, you can just go to bed or you can go read a book or go chill out with, you know, TV for 20 minutes, because that's all you have till bedtime. But we're able to be more in tune to what's really going on with her to be more aware that, hey, you're not just doing this for fun right now there's something going on, and recognizing those which also helps keep the peace.

Danielle Bettmann  52:20  
That's really hard to recognize when it all just feels hard and messy and intentional and personal, and never ending. Right? You can't like breathe before the next one. 

Joseph  52:29  
Oh, God. We weren't recognizing it 6-9 months ago, like at all- that game night, when she begged to play. I went downstairs, I got my poker card shuffler becaused she wanted to use it, and it's like 800 cards that you mix together play this game. She was having fun, and then by the third round, she was over it. You could see it on her face, and you could see she's just kind of pushing and kicking - you asked to play this, we have been out here to play this for you, we would have pushed that edge of you committed to something, let's finish it versus going, you're tired, we can finish this another day. Let's just go have a peaceful evening. So big dramatic change, I think more on us as parents than on the kids behavior, and the kid responds back to us and we respond back to her. So it's an equal opportunity fixer.

Danielle Bettmann  52:42  
It's like a vicious cycle, but on the positive direction.

Joseph  53:28  
Yeah, 100% at the last because like I said, I didn't want to commit to it. I think I told you this before class ended was, the biggest change I saw throughout the months and weeks of doing the classes and doing the work and doing all the lessons - and I don't think everyone listens to the podcast - I listened to a lot of the videos or audio lessons throughout - was that a lot of that deal was targeted towards the gentleman and was targeted more towards the wives. But the biggest thing I learned was that I'm beating my head against the wall trying to make her listen, as I expect her to and she never will. She's listens the way she wants to, and I've got to learn how to respond to that to help keep the peace, not to do exactly what I say, I got to figure out how to make that middle ground without giving up complete control. And that's the hardest freakin thing for me was giving up complete control. I was like no. So I've kept my dad's stance of you do XYZ and then we get to do ABC, and if you don't do X, Y, Z, well then you do A and we'll try again, then we will work on B and C. But she does pretty well. She wants to go bowling tomorrow, so we'll see.

Danielle Bettmann  54:47  
So how would you describe how my program is different from what you thought gentle parenting was, that we talked about at the beginning?

Joseph  55:00  
It wasn't just giving in to the kids. It wasn't what she says goes and you're the asshole if you say no. It's very much a, let's look at your parenting techniques, let's look at what words you're using, and let's look at how the kid is responding, which I hadn't really necessarily considered my words, my attitudes, I'm the adult, I'm the parent, I'm dad- listen to what I'd have to say, again that mentality versus going hey, kid, go take five minutes, I'm gonna take five minutes, I'm gonna think about my response, I'm gonna think about your response to what I just said, and let's see if we can kind of come to some sort of understanding where I can see where your coming from, because there's obviously something about what I just said that triggered you, and how can I rephrase it to get what I want to get done without triggering that fighting response? 

Danielle Bettmann  56:01  
Oh, that's a great way to put it. 

Joseph  56:04  
And that's what it was, we're all triggered by fight or flight and her response when we hit that you had to do X was to fight right back, and I need to figure out how to do X. And you do it without triggering that or they fight you on every turn of events. Whereas the way I thought that process to be: oh, she wants ice cream, to do X,  just give her ice cream and she'll go do it. And yeah, it'll be rainbows and sunshine, you'll just get ran the hell over by your kid is what I came into the class expecting completely. So I'd say it's completely 180 what I thought it would be, there's still some things in there that I went and figured out how to make it work for me and my family. But overall, worth every penny of it. Thank you numerous times, it was more, like I said, a learning experience for me, my own mentality, my own personality, than I think, a guide to raising my kid is when once I worked on me, I could see how to do her, if that makes sense.

Danielle Bettmann  57:15  
100% makes sense, because it's your own self sabotage. It's your own head and ego and, you know, mindset that inhibits you from making a strategy work or using a script or doing a thing that is, you know, taught by whatever expert, it doesn't even matter what that parenting hack is, it's inaccessible, it doesn't make sense, or you can't implement it, or it doesn't work, because of the mindset or the understanding, or, you know, all of that is a huge foundational prerequisite. And then you can take what you love, leave what you don't, a lot of the other hacks for the moment, and it matters less - the 'what' when you have the true understanding of  'how' and you feel truly confident that what you're doing is the right thing, and it's effective and it's working. And it's getting you to the place where you know your relationships are where you want them to be in the long run. But without that peace of mind, it's real hard to feel good about what you're doing. 

Joseph  58:20  
Yeah, completely. Real quick story because I know we're running short on time; last night she wanted to cook dinner. I said hey, we're going to try here, we'll make hotdogs. Sara hadn't gotten home yet. We fired our Trager with hot dogs, and she did the whole thing. I'm like, don't burn yourself. She sat down and was happy. I cranked up temperature, did everything. I had to run and help somebody with something. And I said, "Sara, pull the hot dogs off." I'm out front, Harper comes out crying, bawling her eyes out. Mama wouldn't let me pull them off. I went oh, I was going to pull them off, completely forgot you were cooking. You were helping me. We went back in daddy and her put them back on the grill. She got them off put him right back into the plate. Happy as can be, it was that simple.  I'd made a promise, didn't relay that promise. So you fix it? She was happy.

Danielle Bettmann  59:11  
But I bet you know six months ago or another parent could see that same moment and read it as oh, what an entitled spoiled little brat who can't handle any adversity and wants everything to be her way and she wanted to do it. So the fact that you can read that situation for what it is now, rather than what you could interpret it as easily, that sets off all the alarm bells and you have a reaction is the best type of example of the internal change that you have gone through completely.

Joseph  59:45  
Cuz Sara could fall back and be like, no, hell no, I pulled them off. I made a promise. Keep your promises just like we expect her to.

Sarah  59:54  
She looked at me, like I didn't even get a chance to say anything before she was gone and I'm like he told me to pull them off, like I was supposed to. Then he came in and explain it. I was like, okay, sorry. And then even yesterday, there was something I went in, I was giving her a hug. And she, she was in a little bit of a mood, you could tell she was hungry. She was like, I'm just playing with my Legos. And I said, oh, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to bother you. And she was like, No, you're fine. She was like, Daddy told me to play with the Legos. So I was just letting him know that I was doing it. And I'm like, Oh, okay. But it was like that communication of like, you can now say what you need. And, and we aren't getting frustrated. 

Sarah  1:00:35  
There's mutual respect. And that is so key to build trust and credibility, so that she does take you seriously. And your word does hold true. And you don't have to loft a whole bunch of empty threats, that, you know, you don't take action on, and everything cuz it's coming out of your mouth, you know, she takes problem with, there's an understanding back and forth between the two of you. You don't have to like everything that the other person does. But that sets you up for so much more of a peaceful household. And that's what we all want.

Joseph  1:01:10  
Yeah, and the threats are, I think the biggest thing that we threw out the window is we used to make empty threats like constantly her iPad, her jewelry box, her whatever, would get taken away because it was her favorite toy or favorite thing of the week. And we're gonna take it away and trash it, screw putting it up, you've lost it, it's trash. We all know we're not throwing away a $500 iPad, we're not throwing away the $30 lamp or whatever. We're showing them they have it so we pull it out later. Magically, you'll earn it back. And it's the same freakin fate. She catches on to it so damn quick.

Danielle Bettmann  1:01:50  
You're so smart.

Joseph  1:01:53  
It's like within the first few items. She's like, it's up there. It's right in that cabinet by Mama. 

Sarah  1:02:00  
Well, and not only that, I mean, it didn't matter. I mean, you could be in an argument and you could take away 10 different things. And that was one of the things doing all the research of learning was strong. They don't care. They don't care. They don't care. You could take it all, they don't care. And that came out in the book I listened to where the the lady was talking about her son. And she was like, I literally, like four years old, took all of his toys and gave them away, he never even asked for them. And I'm like, that would be Harper. Like, you've taken it away. It's gone. It's out of sight. I don't care. Yet I'm over here like, gosh, that was like one of your like, you don't care about this toy, like, but she couldn't care less. So it was like, okay, something, you know, I don't know what to do. Because clearly this isn't working. You know, you can't lock her in a room, you know? Because, I mean, I can't lock you in there all day kind of thing. You know, it's like something. What do I do? Like?

Joseph  1:02:55  
Well, I try to pick the lock.

Sarah  1:03:00  
I'm like, ok, I don't know what else to do, because if you had taken away something of mine when I was little, I would have done whatever you wanted to get it back.

Danielle Bettmann  1:03:08  
Yeah, she's not you. She is a different kid.

Sarah  1:03:14  
Like, why doesn't this matter to you?

Danielle Bettmann  1:03:16  
And then it feels like she's winning. Right? 

Sarah  1:03:18  
Wholeheartedly she was winning.

Danielle Bettmann  1:03:20  
Yeah. Yeah. And that only makes you double down and panic more and do all the worst things that are gonna backfire.

Sarah  1:03:27  
Well, and that was one of the things Joseph kept saying, I'm not having my child run this house. I'm not having it. I'm like, ok, well, then we have to figure out something, which is kind of the point I brought up when you know, cycling through do we do this? Do we not it was like, what solution do you have?  I have done the research. I have brought this to the table. Do you have something else? Because if not, here's the path.

Joseph  1:03:47  
Yeah, we did it. It's work. She's not running the house. She tips every once a while. And we do a little bit of pushback or a little bit of realignment. And she's like, okay, because whenever she gets the attitude-I'll ask the questions, how old are you? And who is the adult? And she'll go, I'm seven, and I'm the adult. I just look at her and say well, the house payment is 2000 dollars a month -you got the house payment? No. Who's the adult? You. Ok, so then let's figure out what we need to do. It's a little silly. It's a little goofy, funny, whatever you want to call it, but it just refocuses her attention that she's not the adult in there. She wants to play it. And here's your two choices again. What do we do? And that's 2-3 at the most is where she excels. Anything more than that. You just see your brain shut down.

Danielle Bettmann  1:04:39  
But and and you've been a huge advocate for a particular strategy that was game changing for you guys, which we can happily share in the podcast. What has made bedtime so much better at your house?

Sarah  1:04:54  
Using a podcast. That has definitely been one of the things we had always had like a sound machine in her room, typically like a different colored light or like a little light display thing that would work. But definitely, she loved to read and you could turn the light out and hardly have anything but the little nightlight and she would just sit there and read all night. So, having the podcast where she could listen to it, and help her fall asleep was a game changer for us, which is finding one that worked for us. And then just that way we could control it, depending on the night, she could listen to one or two episodes. There were times we forgot, and I think it probably went on for four or five episodes, but she had long been asleep. But it just allowed her to relax and rest and fall asleep without that added distraction of a book or turning pages because that just keeps her awake more than anything. But I think even now, I mean, honestly, probably in the last month, we haven't really used the podcasts as much. Because it's kind of been one of those, like, if you're not in bed before bedtime, you know, not trying to give her too much time to continue to be up. But even still just really also kind of trying to incorporate making sure she's outside, she's doing something, we'll go for walks, we'll do whatever, because you know if she can be more physically tired, also, she's not fighting us as much. She's tired, and it's good for all of us. We're outside. I mean, most of the time in our neighborhood, like we can go and we can find bunnies and all kinds of stuff, or we'll see turtles, and she's so excited to walk around. I mean, now she's keeping a count of how many bunnies we see on all of our walks. But she's excited to go do it. So between the podcasts and just physical activity for her like it's been life changing for bedtime. I mean, she's not coming out of that room four and five times, not asking for a million things. I think it was two nights ago, I sent her to bed, and I said I'd be over there in a couple of minutes to snuggle. And by the time I got over there, she was asleep. And I was like ah, this is amazing. 

Joseph  1:06:48  
Like I said in yesterday's class is Sara did it as I put the stupid little color changing Wi Fi bulbs in her room on just a little lamp, that's not her nightlight, I go and they will stay on clear so she can read a book until bedtime. And then Sara can tell their little smart home Alexa, whatever device to change the color to red and lower the brightness. Harper when it hits red, it's now bedtime. But the book has been just a game changer. Because you're not going in there. You're not injecting yourself into the situation. It's a colored response that comes to her out of the blue. And she knows and so you're not injecting yourself to start a fight. There's no room for her to fight. She sees the light. And she knows what it is. And that took a couple weeks to kind of catch on to but after that is when the light hits red, she's like okay, bedtime, she puts books up, lays down and tries to sleep. So both of those things, I think have been a huge advantage for bedtime not having the 'I need water, I need to pee, I need a snack, I need this, I need that', every five minutes like we're getting before and I think most people with a strong-willed obstinate, pain in the butt child, whatever you want to call them. for

Danielle Bettmann  1:08:07  
For sure. So as the very last summary, and then I'll ask the question I ask every guest very last summary to the parent that is still skeptical, after listening to this whole conversation that says well, they're an anomaly, their kid is probably not as bad as my kid, that sounds too good to be true, they're you know, making it sound easy. What would you tell that parent about maybe even like the optimistic of things getting better, of working with me, of being able to kind of find some of these tools. What would you tell them?

Joseph  1:08:40  
From a dad, from a guy, from an 80s kid that was brought up to shrug at all this. If you can squeeze it out of your budget, do it. It's a lot of money. I'm not gonna discount that, it was worth every penny. Yeah, I'm not fighting with my kid. I'm not fighting with my wife. I'd probably pay 10 times what I did just to have that peace of mind. It has changed the every day, the entire ecosphere of our house, I guess for lack of a better word is on not walking on eggshells, I guess for lack of better words are bracing of what the hell am I to say or do to piss her off to where I'm now to have a head to head drag out battle with my six year old seven year old? If you can't afford it, listen to the damn podcast. I get it. It's a lot of money for most normal people. But if you can squeak it out your budget and you invest the time and the effort and not, hell come into it with skepticism. Yeah, but try it. And I think the biggest thing is that I was skeptical as hell,  but I tried it. I bought into it after a couple of weeks, whatever it was and started trying to implement little things and go we'll see what the hell this does. I started seeing small improvements. I went ok. That's better than it was. Let's try the next thing. Let's try the next thing. Yeah. And it just kept saying that so talking with Sara - well, what did you do tonight? Oh, you did this? Okay. Let me try that tomorrow night. Oh, that worked. Okay. What else can we do to try to figure out all the little little tricks of like, okay, we're adding notes to the to the gameplay, we're figuring it out. And then hell, you did this, and that didn't work. But let me try it. Oh, it didn't work for me to get through that. But clearly the hell out the one there and let's focus on what works. Because it's not all going to work. And I think that was the biggest skepticism, misconception, whatever word you wanna use,  is that everything you said was going to be golden it was going to work, I think is what they're selling us. And that was more skeptical. And I went, not everything's working. Wait, I'm just ignoring this part of it. And I'm focused on what works. Yeah, I just can't thank you enough like you want more money? Send me a bill. 

Danielle Bettmann  1:11:07  
It's just money. That's okay. Anything to add to that, Sara?

Sarah  1:11:12  
I mean, I think it's just one of those things, if you haven't figured anything else out, or you've tried everything, like, it doesn't hurt to try something else. And to try something different. Because I think the interactions with you, with the group, they're invaluable. And that's just something you can't, even if there's nothing in the group that really resonated with you that one week, just knowing that other parents are going through something similar. You can't describe going, okay, my child is not the only crazy one. We're not the only ones that are ready to, you know, to quit to give up. Like, we're working through this and just having that and having like Joseph said, you know, having somebody go oh, my gosh, that's exactly how I feel. Okay, cool. I'm not alone. Like, I can't describe how much of a comfort that was to go, okay. I'm not the only one sitting over here crying about my child not knowing what to do and not knowing where to turn. I mean,  just that group setting and that feedback to say, What do I do differently? Or, which I love , you know, what you start your group out was - what are your wins, having somebody that is invested and cares to say what went well, so that you are recognizing, hey, it wasn't all bad. This week, we did make progress. I use the scripts or I did this or oh my gosh, look how great the podcast has worked for us or whatever it is, like getting to share that with somebody that truly is invested and cares and can say awesome, what next?

Danielle Bettmann  1:12:38  
Yes, yes, you can't fake that. Yeah, fantastic way to summarize that, you say it way better than I could. And I so appreciate your honesty, because that is the only thing that another parent is actually going to trust and resonate with. And, you know, your firsthand experience is going to be exactly what speaks to them in an entirely different way. So the last question I ask every guest that comes on, is how are you the parent your kid needs?

Sarah  1:13:07  
I would say, from six to nine months ago to now I am the parent that my child needs because we are not arguing, we're not going to bed frustrated, we're able to laugh and have fun and snuggle and create those truly good memories, and be able to enjoy each other, to laugh and to play and not have to worry about when the next blow ups coming to her. Oh, I don't want to do that, because that may set her off like I am more aware.  I'm more able to say we're going to have a good day, and we're going to have fun and here's how we're going to do it.

Danielle Bettmann  1:13:45  
And actually believe your own self. 

Sarah  1:13:46  
Absolutely.

Joseph  1:13:50  
Yeah, I'll tag onto that. The house is not eggshells, the house is not landmines. We're not navigating tiptoeing through the house. We're having a household, we're having a family, we're communicating, we're accomplishing what we need to accomplish on an everyday basis without having to worry about our - I will say without having to worry about our phrasing, but without having to tiptoe around her feelings and what's going to cause her to blow up is it's much easier to go, hey, I think you do XYZ because we've got to do ABC and she was like, okay, and that's why I keep telling her like, all you have to say is okay, and move on, and then we go do fun things, we just have to get the basics out of the way. And so that seemed to be really working. And I think us not having to walk on eggshells or avoid this landmines. It's just made it more of a pleasurable family experience. It's more of a bluey type atmosphere versus Rosanne and Simpsons like get the hell out of my face, leave me alone cuz you're aggravating the piss out of me. And they're still gonna aggravate you and you're still gonna aggravate them. You're different people as you can't be on the same page all the time. And she still has blowups and we still lose our shit. But that's so rare and far in between that it's unbelievable. I'll be quite honest with you. I never thought at the end of the program, like I told you, I never thought we come from point A to point Z, in that short amount of time that we did, if there was a bigger skeptical person out there on this group. I don't think I've met them or seen them or heard them.

Danielle Bettmann  1:15:33  
Nope, you take the cake.

Joseph  1:15:35  
I told you I go, I'm not just though. blow smoke up your ass, it's you that has to prove it and the programs that to me, and it did. So like I said before, if you can afford it, you can squeak it out, whatever. And you're really at the point of where you're banging your head against the wall. Try it, it really does help. As stupid as it sounds coming from somebody, you have no idea who the hell they are, it helped us. So,  thank you, Danielle, we appreciate you.

Danielle Bettmann  1:16:05  
Thank you guys. It has been an honor to work with you. I'm so glad you're still in the graduate community so we can stay connected there. But again, there is no higher compliment than you being able to state your case of your experience inside the program and put your reputation on the line for my reputation. So, again, thank you so much for taking the time and for being willing to share your family's story. We all benefit from it and appreciate it so much. Thank you guys.

Sarah  1:16:35  
Thank you.

Joseph  1:16:35  
Thanks.

Danielle Bettmann  1:16:36  
Thank you so much for tuning into this episode of Failing Motherhood. Your kids are so lucky to have you. If you loved this episode, take a screenshot right now and share it in your Instagram stories and tag me. If you're loving the podcast, be sure that you've subscribed and leave a review so we can help more moms know they're not alone if they feel like they're failing motherhood on a daily basis. And if you're ready to transform your relationship with your strong willed child, and invest in the support you need to make it happen -schedule your free consultation using the link in the show notes. I can't wait to meet you. Thanks for coming on this journey with me. I believe in you, and I'm cheering you on.