Surviving Until or Without Qualifying for a Diagnosis [Danielle on Moms Talk Autism]

A special gift for you this week, courtesy of our friends at Moms Talk Autism. Not only did they join me for last week’s episode, but they interviewed me on their show and were kind enough to share it with our audience so I could share it here.

My work specializes in helping families who are struggling with Neurodivergent traits in their child but don’t have a diagnosis yet or whose child does not meet the criteria for a specific diagnosis.

In this episode of Moms Talk Autism, I share what traits to look for in your child and what to do when you’re in the messy middle, in hopes this conversation is a helpful stepping stone to finding solutions for your family.

After you tune into this episode, don’t forget to head over to Moms Talk Autism and check it out... lots of great vulnerable conversations, topics and resources for families with Neurodivergent and Autistic kids!

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IN THIS EPISODE, WE COVERED...

• The dichotomy of strong-willed kids at HOME v. at school
• Jean's 1st hand experience of this with her daughter 20 years ago
• The powerful catalyst of community

DON'T MISS-

• When it feels like you're in an abusive relationship with your child

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// CONNECT WITH MOMS TALK AUTISM //
Website: https://www.momstalkautism.com/
Instagram (@momstalkautism)

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Transcript

Brittney Crabtree  0:00 
Hello everyone. Welcome to Moms Talk Autism. We are here with you today, with a special guest. So stay tuned.

Brittney Crabtree  0:08 
When you become a mom, you never imagine your child getting an autism diagnosis. It feels like your dreams have shattered, like a framed photograph falling off your mantle, exploding into 1000 pieces. But instead of trying to glue those pieces back together, this community of moms is here to help you build a new dream, a better one. So join in the conversation as us Moms Talk Autism.

Brittney Crabtree  0:37 
Okay, welcome everyone. This is I'm Brittney. If you don't already know the sultry sound of my voice, that is me I am here with Jean today too, and we are with a special guest. Danielle Bettmann has her Bachelor's in Child Development and Education from Birth to Grade Three, with a Teaching Certification. She taught Head Start, Early Start, and was a home visitor for Save The Children, a program called Early Steps to School Success. She was also an in home child care provider alongside a colleague for a little while, before leading a large moms group. She is certified as a Positive Discipline Parent Educator, and has been working directly with parents, locally and virtually for many years with her own company. She has two daughters, 10 and 9, and she describes her second daughter as as strong willed as they come, which is a very nice way of putting that, if I do say so. She is the owner of Parenting Wholeheartedly. We'll talk about that some more in a little bit, and she is the host of the Failing Motherhood podcast, and we are so glad to have you with us today. Welcome Danielle.

Danielle Bettmann  2:05 
Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited.

Brittney Crabtree  2:07 
It is our pleasure. We aways try to talk to guests before we meet with them, and we had a lovely conversation with Danielle a while ago. And we just want to hear more about maybe, maybe your own children as much as you would like to share, and then kind of your process that brought you here today with what you do to help other families.

Danielle Bettmann  2:28 
Yeah, absolutely. So I was like you had said, a home visitor, and I had already realized what happens in a classroom is great as a teacher, but when I moved into home visiting, I realized home is what really wires kids. And not only can I have an influence on one kid's 9 months of like a school year, but you know all their siblings in their home that when I equip the parent, then it's for siblings, it's for their whole childhood. I really saw the power of being in that home environment and equipping the parent, because they're doing the hardest job in the world with very little training to speak of, and they're doing their best with the tools they have and the perspective they had. So every time I could bring a developmental screening by or some more books that they could read with their kids, they just loved it, and they dove right in. And so it felt super rewarding.

And then I became a parent myself, and I wanted to go back and apologize to all the parents that I worked with prior to being a parent myself, because textbooks are one thing, right? And parenting is a whole different ballgame and immediately I realized, like classroom management skills do not translate to your own kids. It is a whole different breed. And there is so much more than just sleepless nights and you know, worry about them getting sick. It the mental load. I mean, I'm preaching to the choir here, right? But that was when I really realized, okay, so not only do I want to continue to work in home with parents, but I want to keep figuring out what's going to work at my house, because my two girls were back to back, 15 months apart. Could not be more different in temperament.

I mean, immediately out of the gate, just shocked by - we're doing the same thing, we're the same parents, but they are not and my second daughter seemed to be very sensitive  - go like zero to 60, the littlest thing could set her off. Just very, very passionate, intense. Nothing can change her mind. Nothing can make her get over it. That there was just these things that I was kind of blown away by and couldn't figure out initially. So of course, then parenting became a huge source of stress between my husband and I, of trying to figure this out, blind, leading the blind. You know, we should be doing this, or I saw this on social media. We should, you know, why aren't you doing it my way? And so it just became, that was the biggest trend that I went down a rabbit hole with, because it wasn't something that she qualified for services for. It seemed to be very specific to home.

She was very high functioning in school settings. It didn't come up with other authority figures. It was very isolated to kind of the dynamics within our home relationships, and just really became around behavior -like it felt manipulative, it felt intentional, it felt like it was a choice she was making to overreact or to hyper fixate. And so as I started working with families in home workshops, things like that, I realized if families have about two or three kids, they almost have one kid that's very similar to my second daughter, and when I started to figure out what worked for her, then I started to help them. And that's really kind of what I've niched down into, is the families that do not qualify for a diagnosis, or their child isn't old enough to be able to solidify a diagnosis, but they are struggling at home, but they feel like they're the only ones, because their child is not the same person in other contexts, and it feels very defeating and exhausting, and they just feel like it it's disrespectful, like there's a lot of kind of assumptions you can make, and that makes you feel like you're doing a horrible job as a parent. And so that's the families that I help now.

Brittney Crabtree  6:27 
That is amazing. I want to touch on a couple of things. Like, I think it's really important, it's kind of a funny phrase that we use, but, you know, yeah, I was a fabulous parent until I had my own kids too, right? Like, we joke about that. I've seen that on T shirts and stuff but it's so true, like so true. The reason why we find that funny is because there's a lot of irony in that statement, because that's really true. I was also in a lot of child development and child psychology things before I was a parent, and thought I had it down. And my first one, very similar to you, was was fairly easy to parent, like, at least it aligned with what I had, my own perspective, my own like, you know, upbringing of myself. But yeah, that very, very quickly changed with my second as well, with my boys. So I feel you. I think a lot of people can relate to that, even if it's your first that you're like, whoa, okay, okay, I did not sign up for this, like, I love you.

Danielle Bettmann  7:26 
Hence the name of my podcast, Failing Motherhood.

Brittney Crabtree  7:30 
Failing Motherhood, yes, exactly. So I think it's also really key. I know a lot of our listeners, and a lot of people I know, even personally, they are either working towards a diagnosis, they are wondering if they should get a diagnosis, or maybe they are even testing, but then not necessarily qualifying. And there's that gray area of a lot of families who are really struggling, but maybe don't necessarily have access to the services, or don't have that official diagnosis yet, and that's where something like with your program that can maybe help them. So if you want to tell us a little bit about your small groups and some of the things you do, I'd love to hear more about that.

Danielle Bettmann  8:16 
Yeah, there are a surprising amount of families that find themselves in that gap, yet they don't know each other, or they're not talking about it online, or that, you know, that's not something they feel comfortable vulnerably talking about, because, sure, they feel a little bit crazy, especially when, you know, they go to parent teacher conferences and they bring up a concern, like this is what we see at home, and the teachers are shocked, like you're talking about this kid, like they're an angel, they're so good for me - so you feel a little bit like, oh, are they just playing me like a fiddle? Is that what this is like? I don't even know what's up and down anymore, and I talk, try to talk to the pediatrician, and they just tell me to ignore the tantrums, you know, like there's just so much conflicting information I find on social media. I'm trying to do Gentle Parenting 101, it feels like it backfires.

I mean, there's so many avenues that these parents go down, and it's not for lack of information or effort that they're struggling. It's the opposite. It's because they care so much about their kid, and it's because they are determined to figure this out, because it feels like there's still a missing piece here, like at the end of the day, that they are a different kid to raise than their sibling or my friend's kid, and I've got to figure out why, because I feel like if I can crack the code, we can make some progress here, and I am not willing to just let this slide, and 15 years from now, have a kid who is rebelling for the sake of rebelling as a teenager, when things are like so much more risky or we don't have this credibility and open, honest relationship down the road like that means more to me than anything else. And if I need to, like, bend myself over backwards into a pretzel to figure out sooner than later, how to stop the train we're on - I'm gonna do it. And that's why I love working with parents.

I call this type of mom a worrying warrior, because she is darned if she's not gonna figure this out. And, you know, we love her for it. She's usually partnering with a parent that is a just tell me what to do, dad, right? Like I don't know, it's not on my news feed. I don't get it. I'm not as worried as you, but just tell me what to do. And that's a whole nother mental load for that mom to then reteach everything she's trying to learn and figure out in real time. Or she's married to 'It is what it is', dad, they're fine. They're a kid. I'm not that worried about it. Like they'll figure it out. They just need time. And so either way, you know, still just adds a lot of stress. So the things that we work on in the meantime, there might be a diagnosis down the road, there might not be. In the meantime, what can we do?

There's kind of three pillars to my approach - working on your composure. Arguably, objectively, it's stressful to deal with these high intensity, big emotional reactions, meltdowns, tantrums, whatever you want to call them, outbursts that's hard to deal with. We did not come to parenting equipped with a patience level that's being asked of us. Right? Nobody does right? So we need to be processing stress. We need to be managing, you know, coping with our emotions. We need to be understanding the mindset that's going to help us stay grounded. And we need to look at kind of the story we're telling ourselves about this behavior and how it makes sense to us, and is that accurate, and is it helpful, or is it actually making it a lot harder to stay patient? So that's the composure piece.

Communication. There's a lot of what we're asking our kids to do that is really rudimentary communication that does backfire, because it makes them angry. It makes them feel unheard. It makes them feel like they're just being told what to do all the time. And so it invites a power struggle, because it's, you know, control versus control, or they're just trying to manage getting their needs met for attention in really negative ways, and so we're just constantly beating around the bush or playing Whack a Mole when we could find better ways to ask for what we're asking them for, or be able to make sure that we have that prerequisite, that they do feel heard, and we have a more of a collaborative problem solving approach that brings them in to being much more willing to hash it out with us. And honestly, negotiation is pretty welcomed with kids who see the world from this lens of, like, a very justice, fairness angle. We got to be able to work with it. And, you know, you got to figure out a way to do that, that you feel confident with so that's the communication piece. It's kind and firm. We validate emotions, yet still hold boundaries, and that's a very hard lane to walk.

Danielle Bettmann  12:49 
And the last C is core needs - making sure that the behavior that we're seeing from them, it's for a reason. It's not random. We know that for sure, but if it's not personal, and it's not this calculated manipulation tactic of like a 25 year old villain, what is it if they're struggling with executive function, if they're struggling with a need for feeling like they can manage things so they feel like it's in their control, it makes sense to them. It's predictable. They, you know, kind of run that dynamic so everybody's kind of held hostage to their mood. It's probably because they just need more positive outlets for getting that need for control met. Same with attention - if they'd rather have negative attention than none, and that, you know, new siblings in the house, we got to find ways to meet that need positively and proactively and preventatively, that way, eliminates the need for that behavior, and that's what that core needs piece of my program works towards.

And when you have kind of that skill set, then and your co partner is hearing the same language at the same time from the source, being able to reckon through it and ask their questions of, well, what if that means that they're getting away with that behavior? What if they think it's okay to treat people like that, and you know, is this actually going to make them more entitled or spoiled? You have to be able to reckon with that and actually come out the other side feeling like, okay, we have more tools. We're more equipped. That makes you feel energetically stronger, and your child feels that it's not just a 'my way or the highway' type of like wielding authority that creates fear. It's an actual strength, and that's what is an attractive form of leadership. And when you feel more equipped and confident, then your child really does gravitate towards that, and they'll feel safer with you, and you'll find a lot of behaviors do improve before or if ever you qualify for services,

Brittney Crabtree  14:50 
That's amazing. Yeah. I mean, core needs. All behavior is communication. It all comes back to communication in the end, even negative behavior is communication, even, you know, aggression or violence, that's communication. It all comes back to that. And a lot of kids, a lot of parents, don't understand, or that's a new concept of, well, why are they acting out? They know that they're going to get in trouble. Well, they're still getting attention. The getting attention, even if it's negative, is more valuable to them than no attention. They'd rather have the negative than nothing. And once you kind of wrap your head around that, you're able to to change your own perspective and maybe your own way to communicate back to them.

Jean Mayer  15:36 
Danielle, I have a play in education now, in my life, I serve as school board trustee. So everything that you're also saying jumps out at me. Obviously, one of the things that we define a lot on our podcast and other episodes we've done is that, again, they don't generalize their behavior and their skills in all settings. It's all different - the functional behavior, functional setting of school setting, is much different than the home and then, versus community and to find professionals that are the hybrid of being able to do and understand all those pieces are really instrumental in being able to provide good stewardship and guidance to a parent that is stuck in that, because they end up in these little echo chambers of only, you know, they can't cross those mediums.

And so I think what you've done is a brilliant thing to provide insight, because also requiring eligibility at school is not a diagnosis necessarily. You're getting a diagnosis medically. Things that I mentor a lot of families too, is that they can, even if their child doesn't necessarily need an educational plan, but a 504 is a mental health resource, and learning how to navigate that process, and because you were an educator in a school setting, I'm sure you are able to help steward families in that direction, uniquely to before I was this parent, before I have my two children now, that one that's neurodivergent and my other one, who's allegedly neurotypical. Her diagnosis is that she's 8.  I had my nieces, and everything you describe, I had that experience with my youngest niece. I literally could go into teacher conferences, and me and my husband at the time, would look at each other like, are you talking about the same child? Because we raised her. I'm like, no way.

I mean, but the thing is, is that she was so high achieving, and she was drawn to that, what I was able to do, and I don't know if this is input that you're able to provide those families, but even though those behaviors weren't manifesting themselves in school, what we noticed is, is that she was in such overdrive at school that we still needed to find a way, and if she was in a private school, so there was no educational plan, there was no 504 axis. There were none of that. So the teachers and the staff and our counselors were like, we have to make intentional breaks, because she is coming home and she is unloading and unleashing and she was - there was diagnosis that came later. But getting those diagnosis in our adolescents and our teenagers is really, really, really hard and for any parent that's going through that, I really feel for that. I went to, like, all of these parent training groups. I did anything, poured myself into anything I possibly could. So all that desperation that you were explaining - like I'd lived that with her. There was not, there was not this. There was nothing for me forever. I felt like I was losing my mind, because even family members were like, oh, my God, she's so amazing, and she is, don't get me wrong, me and her are very, very close. But that reality was like, yes, this is a thing like, this is a thing. There was no and I had to create teams and have all these one off conversations with all the, you know, educators and medical professionals we were working with, but we weren't. It was really hard to get that and because of the dynamic at home, and sometimes that can't be fixed. And I will tell you that it wasn't. She was able to triangulate behaviors, or triangulate myself and my husband to get things, and that's normal. They find that that's their job. They're going to figure out how to get exactly what they want, and unless you're able to fix that, that's always a chasm you're constantly going to be running into. So like this is amazing. Thank you for so much for creating it and creating another yet outlet and a resource for our families to dive into, because they are, and they may be in that Limbo forever, because it may not be, whether they're kids in private school. You're really creating something individually on your own, and it can be even really isolating and, like, very disempowering and defeating, like everything you described. I was like, yes, oh my God. I feel seen from like, 15 years ago already. She's now 30 she has her own child, and the oldest one is 32 so this is, you know, we, we talk about these things very candidly. I can't actually wait to tell her about this conversation. She's amazing and I will say, like, that's also the light at the end of the tunnel, is that I can say, our kids can be okay, like, so throughout that.

Danielle Bettmann  21:05  
It is so isolating and you don't have that long term understanding, you don't have, like, that light at the end of the tunnel most of the time, and it feels very much like most of my clients will not talk to their friends about being in a parenting small group community, because it feels like there's a stigma still about like especially if it doesn't take insurance and it's not medical, there's no legitimacy, still, and the inverse of that is it's actually so much more effective because, like you said, it's not those silos that are separate from each other. It's so much more cohesive, comprehensive and hybrid that you see improvement, so much more of it, like that accelerated rate, but they still feel ashamed to sign up for my program, because it feels like, well, my extended family members say all I need to do is be more strict, and if I would just give them a good spanking, then this wouldn't be happening. And you know, my mother in law says this, and my friends say this, and so they're so confused, they're at the end of their rope. They really fear the worst and feel crazy and it's awful to be in that place and just feel like there is nothing for you out there that you don't qualify for, that you're not going to be able to jump through all the hoops to, you know, be able to manage and yeah. So thank you for validating. 

Brittney Crabtree  21:06  
What do you do? What do you do in that situation? Danielle, are you able to get the parents to a place where they do feel comfortable sharing? When does that change happen? Would you say?

Danielle Bettmann  22:57  
So, my program is three months long, and they'll initially ask me at the beginning, like, how do I help get maybe another caregiver on board that's like a grandparent that watches them during the day? Or, you know, how do I kind of advocate for them? And I basically say, wait till week eight or nine, in their time working together. Because you have to feel convicted that you have reckoned with some things. You've figured out what works in a way that makes you feel more confident in advocating for them and being able to speak up in ways that say, Hey, we've worked really hard to figure out what's working for them, and here's what that looks like for us right now. We would love for you to be able to be a part of our team, you know,  in helping them improve their behavior. But you can't say that if you feel like it's the blind leading the blind, or if you say, I don't like how you're dealing with it, but also I don't know what to recommend instead. So you know, there's, there's kind of a limbo there again, where you have to kind of hold your nerve, and then once they get to week eight or nine, we do have, you know, some modules on being able to hold boundaries with extended family, or being able to advocate in other settings for your child. And at that point, a lot of the stories and the reasons for the behavior and the story that parent is telling themselves have changed very drastically, where their perspective of really being able to understand what's going on in their child's head is so much more life giving and hope filled that though they do feel a lot more like they can breathe. And, you know, we're not walking on eggshells, just terrified of what's going to set them off next, because I don't think I can handle it right. I don't have time for that. I have other kids, all these things, but there still isn't the I'm shouting from the rooftops - everyone should work with a parenting coach yet, like I can very rarely get them to leave more of a public review. That is still like - I mean I've made a lot of progress - but,  I don't want everyone to know. I want them to just think I did it myself.

Brittney Crabtree  25:04  
Yeah, sure. I want all the accolades. Of course. No, but it's, it's yeah, three months is a great - that's exactly the jumpstart that someone would need to then, therefore, take those skills and then start applying, right? And I think it's important to emphasize, and maybe you can speak a little bit more on this, that in three months, you're going to see some changes, depending on your child and the severity and their age and their ability to, you know, understand and things, of course, but real, long, lasting change is going to take longer than that. And so you're going to implement those tools, but then continue as you move forward and over time, over a more extended period of time, you're going to be able to really see those changes, not only in your child, but hopefully in yourself and in your partner, your extended family as well.

Danielle Bettmann  25:52  
For sure, for sure, yep, keeping those expectations of yourself and your family realistic that you know you're going to run through the boot camp, and then you're in maintenance mode, practicing for the rest of your relationship for sure. And you know, you're finding yourself going back to those instincts and conditioning the way you were wired constantly, and every time you're under more stress, that's going to be harder. So continuing to kind of know how to reset and how to go back to the basics, and all of that is, is a skill set in of itself. So I do have kind of an alumni group for everybody that has graduated, where we keep, you know, having more extended calls, because you're always throwing new curveballs, right? You're always needing to remember to have grace for yourself and all of those things.

Brittney Crabtree  26:39  
You have to readjust. And even then, you know, maybe later down the road, there is a diagnosis, and that's part of the core need. You have to meet those needs first. And this applies even if you do have a diagnosis. I know with my son, he's non speaking, if he is uncomfortable in a physical way, one of his core needs are not being met. He does not have that communication to be able to tell me. And so it it manifests itself in behaviors, and specifically aggression, and just as it would if you couldn't speak and you were in pain, you're probably going to physically do something about it. That's very natural. So you have to look at it that way, right? And so if those core needs, if that diagnosis, if accommodations, or whatever your child needs, aren't being met, then it's really, really difficult to move forward in these other areas. So I think that's really, really important and something I try to approach that I think we all do on the podcast, all of us ladies like, okay, my child is acting this way, whether at home or in a different setting or wherever with me - are all of the core needs being met? Is there something physically or sensory going on that I can help manipulate, first, to help regulate, and if those things all are checking out, then we move to other forms of communication, or other ways that need to be possibly looked at, to help them understand or, you know, calm down. So I think that's that's really, really cool. Tell me a little bit. How does someone - so I'm like, we have listens, listeners, right? Who are hearing this, and they're like, okay, this might fit what I need, but I just don't know if this is right for my kid and myself. Like, what kind of traits or experiences or behavior should they be maybe, like, should their own child be looking at that they would then want to sign up for something like this?

Danielle Bettmann  28:38  
Yes. I will go down the checklist and one of kind of the qualifying things that parents can kind of self identify, and I already kind of described what that looks like to be on the parenting side of that. But you know, what does it look like for your child? And I work with families that have kids 10 and under, so it's kind of particular to that age range, just in children context. Okay, so typically, they are very sensitive, as in, easily overtired, easily over hangry, in tune with other people's moods. You know, they may have some sensory preferences, you know, picky eating, or, you know, clothes are too scratchy, or just some of those things where it's manageable and they can function, but they definitely have more sensory needs than another sibling. Typically, like I said, They'll context switch between environments, where they keep it together in some environments, and then have that hangover and let it all out at home, and have all those big feels. They have fits of rage, and my clients will call it like an alter ego anger, where they their eyes glaze over, and they turn into someone or something else, and there's like nothing you can do to get through to them in that state.

Brittney Crabtree  30:00  
We call that Dr Jekyll and Mr. Hyde in our house. 

Danielle Bettmann  30:03  
Yeah, there you go. Yep. They also are aggressive, or, like, physically more violent at older ages than their peers, where parents will say, this shouldn't be developmentally appropriate anymore at this age, so because maybe their emotions are so big, or they're so like, completely overtaken by the size of their emotion. They're still hitting, kicking, biting, slapping, things like that at older ages. That feels very concerning to parents. Understandably, they might be very smart, or, you know, they are perceptive, they are observant. They do well in school. They can articulate at high levels, where it's almost easier to treat them as older than they are, and yet, when they are emotionally overridden, they like revert back, and they like regress, and it's almost like they can't verbalize at all, and they'll turn into like animal sounds, and, you know, grunts and growls and things like that. 

Brittney Crabtree  31:02  
Or they're just repeating themselves over and over again.

Danielle Bettmann  31:04  
Yeah, that same thing, and just won't let it go. Yep, for kids like this, vulnerability is very painful, so they have a hard time apologizing, hard time being put on the spot, admitting they're wrong, maybe even in positive situations like hate to be sung Happy Birthday, you know, by like, a group of people, because it just feels like oof, too much. Everything is a big deal. No matter how irrational it seems, the reaction is truly genuine. They've genuinely felt that strongly, good and bad. There are positive and negative, yin and yang. Highs are high, lows are low. Yeah, they're obsessed with fairness, which can make them feel seem very egocentric or ungrateful, because there's like kind of they're always out in like that 'what's in it for me', factor and advocating for themselves and really trying to work for that fairness, which is hard to parents with siblings, right? Understandably. They can be almost emotional, my clients call it emotional abuse, where they can be saying to you, go away. I don't want you to be here. You know, these very mean things, you know, I don't want you to be my mom, and then yet, at the same moment, cling to your leg, not let you leave.

Brittney Crabtree  32:29  
That's when a parent's like, I don't what, I don't know what you want. Then like, you're like I have two different communication things happening at the same time here, what do you want me to do?

Jean Mayer  32:39  
If I could, I could get Taylor now, my niece to come on and she now, like, she's so self-aware that was totally what was happening, and she was the queen of the below-the-belt comments like, you have no idea like she was seething like she got that from my sister because she was very much like that. I just didn't have that in me. But I'm like, whoa. But then it was like stage five clinger, you know you had to be, like, would not separate from me, and I'm like, this is an abusive situation. I used to say that. I'm like, you don't understand, yeah, I'm in this abusive situation. And she's because she's like, I didn't mean to. And I said, I know, you're a kid. That's the thing. You're a kid. We are trying to help figure out what's for you. I did not blame you for what you were struggling with. You know, I was constantly just trying to seek those tools. I was like, what else can I do here, right, to alleviate the situation? 

Danielle Bettmann  33:34  
You needed support.

Jean Mayer  33:36  
There was none. Very similar. That's not very uncommon from what is currently happening in my life now. I'm like, it's repeating but like, everything you're saying, I'm like, oh my God, that was us and there were times where it was also physically aggressive and abusive, and I've heard that, you know, when Rory was getting diagnosed, you know, it's that age- everyone's watching our kids developmentally. And I don't know if because you're working in that age group, I remember having those conversations with parents, and they're like, We don't know what's going on. It could be ADHD, could be this mood disorder, we don't know.  Emotional disturbance also seems to be this overarching, you know, catch-all thing that happens to kids when you know,  in school getting that kind of identification. And so I hear that when you know those parents are like, I am in an abusive relationship, and I've tried to explain this to my family, and they're not getting it either. And so when you talk about laying out the groundwork for the boundaries and having those conversations during this program are parents like data collecting and like reporting back to you and then that's giving them the skills to like communicate. What does that look like? I'm just curious.

Danielle Bettmann  35:00  
Yeah, no, you hit it right on the head. I think most families, if they do get a diagnosis from like a child therapist or something, it'll say adjustment disorder or some sort of attachment disorder, emotion disorder, because it's just, oh well, they just can't regulate their big emotions. So we'll just kind of - it very much feels like slap a sticker on it and, you know, placate the parent a little bit, but yet they're still not going to give a whole lot of help, tangibly, practically, about what to do about it. It's just kind of like, oh, yeah, maybe in a couple more years they'll figure it out. Fingers crossed. I mean, you know, again, it just makes you feel, yep, I'm crazy, and I'm in this abusive relationship, and there's all these moments of, I know they're capable of this, and yet they still ask for my help putting their pants on - this very much feels like I should make a mountain out of a molehill. But what battles do I pick? There's just so much mental load, is this warranted? Am I supposed to be making accommodations? Am I supposed to be being really strict, so it's very hard. And I think there's a lot of messy middle in the middle where it feels like we're two steps forward, one step back. And I do have families, not necessarily data track for me, but for their own progress. I have them at three different points in the journey track the amount of escalated incidents they are experiencing per day or per week, and that definition is genuinely just any moment where the child reacts out of nowhere, or they ask them to do something, and things escalate, and it ends up getting to a point of no return, or the parent just doesn't know how to handle it at that point, and they'll then track how many times that happens per day or per week at these three points in the journey. And typically it is almost by the book at this point, every client I work with comes in with about three a day and leaves with three a week.

Brittney Crabtree  36:59  
That's huge. That's progress.

Danielle Bettmann  37:02  
Yeah, it feels amazing. So life-giving, because it's never going to be perfect, it's still developmentally appropriate to have some of those moments, because you can't control every need and all the things that are variables for those moments, but to know that when they come, you can handle them. You can diffuse them quickly. You have more patience for them because your tank is fuller. I mean, all of that perspective leads you to being much more successful. 

Jean Mayer  37:28  
That's awesome.

Brittney Crabtree  37:31  
Are there any other things that parents should be criteria of the kids?

Danielle Bettmann  37:36  
Yep, so you can't seem to get ahead of the next meltdown in that state, right where you're walking on eggshells. It feels like they have these unspoken expectations of how the day is going to go and then, but that's not verbalized. Nobody agreed on those. It was never the plan. And then they can't handle it when reality makes those expectations come crashing down. I thought we were gonna do this and this. No, nobody said that. That was never the plan, but now we're having a meltdown because we didn't go to Disneyland when, how am I supposed to know that you thought we were gonna go to Disneyland today? Like just impassable expectations for everyone else to kind of manage. They question everything, but there's not enough logic, explanation, or reasoning in the world where that it clicks in and they're like, oh my gosh, yes, now I'm satisfied. Thank you. You've changed my mind. Like you're talking to a wall and they're still going to find room to negotiate or find ways around.

Brittney Crabtree  38:41  
It's like, oh, I hear all of those very reasonable expectations that you are placing in front of me, Mom and Dad. I appreciate your input. I will now go forth and do those things, like that is not going to be happening. 

Danielle Bettmann  38:54  
Never gonna happen. Two more - life is on their terms. Hurry up means nothing. Typically, they're going to be on their own time schedule to get ready for school, put their clothes on, put their car seat buckles on, do the bedtime routine. It just feels like we can't get it to go on the time schedule, or the time crunch is always going to add then stress on the parent, because they're not working with you. Time is so ambiguous it means nothing to them. And the lesson is they they get stuck in a gear, and then they hyper-fixate on something and just can't move on, can't let it go -keep asking, keep whining, keep begging, keep repeating. And it just feels like you could throw all the parenting strategies at them in that moment, and it's not gonna get them to step out of it or get over it or move on. So you just feel like you're hitting your head against the wall over and over and over, right? So if that sounds familiar to you, then you're my people.

Brittney Crabtree  39:55  
Then this is for you, right? And I really love the idea of do you find that as parents are doing these groups together, that they are making connections together as well?

Danielle Bettmann  40:06  
100% Yeah, I originally was working with families one on one, and I created the group coaching program format specifically, because you need to also feel validated and have solidarity with other parents that are in this journey with you and without that, I found that my one on one clients still harbored a certain amount of shame or guilt or just like overall resentment for their situation, and couldn't let things go themselves, and once they got in a container of like 10 or 12 other families, then all of that shed, and they're like, okay, fine. Like, this feels so freeing to know I'm not the only one and have that proof. And even to hear like someone else had an even worse week this week, and that makes me feel a little bit better. And to be honest about like, venting and saying, like I wanted to throw my kid out the window this morning and then just get nothing but like, 100 nonjudgmental stares. You know, just getting that back on Zoom is just like, okay, I feel so much better. Now I'm ready to problem solve and find another breakthrough I needed. But without that, like, you stay stuck too, as a parent.

Brittney Crabtree  41:17  
Yeah, it's true, we're all about community here, like that is that is a core, like tenant of our whole point of this podcast, and for having guests like you on, is to validate parents in feeling like they're not alone, and this isn't just a you thing. This guilt and the pressure that we put on ourselves can be very, you know, just completely overwhelming and paralyzing to us. And so you throw in that diagnosis too, you know, and it's like, what do I even do? I I feel completely ill equipped to handle this. Just knowing, even if it doesn't, there's no practical benefit, necessarily, but just knowing that there are other families and other parents out there like yours, it does help. It does it makes you feel less like you're on this little island all on your own, and everyone else is doing just fine. You're just trying to breathe. I really appreciate all that you've brought forth with us today and talking about this. And hopefully, our listeners are feeling validated and like, yeah, there are parts of this that really apply to my situation, and maybe this is an avenue I need to look into.

Danielle Bettmann  42:39  
They might have a diagnosis down the road you might have, you know, a medication that could help it right now, it's like you're throwing spaghetti at a wall by just trying to figure out what works. And this is not to say that it avoids a diagnosis, or that it's a, you know, a way around it, or, you know, some people can always be supplemental with what you're doing, and, you know, with schools and other therapies and things, it's very much like for the parents that say,  it feels like a tumbleweed right now, and I want to be able to, like, sort out, what can we influence, what can't we or what about my child is an exception to the rule, and what is developmentally appropriate, because right now, it just feels very convoluted, and everything's hard, everything's a mess. And when you go through something like this for three months, and you really try to strengthen your resolve, strengthen your patience, strengthen your communication style, and put all of these other avenues for structure in place, then after three months, you do have a much clearer view of understanding your child, their anomalies, the way that they're wired, and the exceptions to the rule that you can then, with even more strength, advocate for them in other situations, or with a therapist, or be able to say, here's something that we've still not really been able to influence or manage from home, but all of these other situations dissipated completely. So then you know, you are able to take an even more factual approach to those situations where you want to get evaluated and maybe see things from a light of maybe they will truly benefit from ADHD medication. But right now, you don't feel good, no, like kind of just slapping that on if you don't feel like you do your due diligence first. And that's kind of the avenue that I provide, and how that's supplemented, that's really key.

Brittney Crabtree  44:29  
It's something we also talk about quite a little bit, is there's not just one fix-all thing you can do right, having these kinds of tools in your tool belt, and maybe a diagnosis, and maybe some medication and maybe some specialized therapy, all of those pieces together are going to help and create the best possible outcome for you. It's not just one thing. It's rarely that way. We are complex beings. You know, it's not that simple. Yeah, unfortunately, I wish we wish there was a magic pill. Oh, man, I would take that so fast. Yeah, something I want to just kind of close with, we want to make sure we tell everybody where to find you, and we'll do that at the end. But I wanted to close with just a piece of maybe advice, maybe something you could speak to from some of your families who've gone through your program and are further down the road now, you know, maybe years or so. But as someone who has older children myself, things don't necessarily get easier. I want to, like, really emphasize this fact, but they always change. Right? How I had to parent when all of my children were itty bitty and little and in diapers and, you know, had very limited communication is very, very different than now as older teens and into their 20s, even some of those kids still have extremely limited communication. The communication piece has not changed for them, right? We still have some very high, high needs and a lot of support is needed, but the way I parent and the way I approach working with them is different than what it was when they were younger. You will not be doing the same things with your child, regardless of their diagnosis or their ability at age three as when they are 13 or 23, it will change. So, if that is any consolation to anyone who feels like they are just stuck in the mud and they are never, ever going to change. It's never going to move. It's always going to be this way. It's not true. I cannot promise you it will always be easier, but it will change. So I don't know if you can speak on that with any of your past clients, or even your own experience with your daughters?

Danielle Bettmann  45:03  
Oh yeah. I mean the truest phrase is that it's long days, short years. And it's so true, you feel like you are in this never-ending cycle, and all of a sudden you look up and they're four years older.

Brittney Crabtree  47:12  
Like, how does that happen? You blink, and it's like, what just happened?

Danielle Bettmann  47:16  
Yes, I feel that. And I think there is always moving goalposts, always behaviors that evolve, always like you're not the same person either. I'm not at all the same parent that I was when my kids were two and one as I am now. And that's for their benefit and also, the problem with that is, it's a two-sided coin. You can look back and you can say, oh, I wish I wouldn't have, you know, been so reactive, or had such a hard time when they were little, or wish I would have known what I know now. And you can't, it sucks. It's bittersweet, but you can't go back and redo, but you can feel really strong that the person you were then led you to be the person you are now. And because you have more tools and more capacity, you're able to be even more the person you were the whole time. But in that stage of life, you had very little capacity, very little understanding, very little tools. And the more equipped we are, the better we feel, the better we're able to do. So that's true for us, and that's true for our kids. And so there's only tomorrow and you want to be able to say, I was, you know, more aligned with the person, the parent, that I feel really good about today than I was yesterday. And I'll continue to kind of be on that journey tomorrow versus, you know, today. But looking back and being able to have that nostalgia feeling, looking back and saying, oh, you know, things were more simple than, or they were easier then, or, you know, might be even I wish I could go back to when they were little. No, you just have rose-colored glasses, because nostalgia means that the anxiety of that moment is taken away and all that the good feelings are left. Just remember how stressed you actually were. Yeah, like, that lens of reality on top of it too.

Brittney Crabtree  49:17  
It does. It sure does. It's really funny now talking to my own mother, she will recall certain memories that I recall with having a lot of like, maybe angst or like, contention, you know, between especially teenage years. She's like, I just don't remember that at all. You were just a sweet little da da da da da. I'm like, I am so glad that you have filtered your memories that you think this was a grand old time, you and me, and I'm just gonna let you think I was this, this angel child, so and I hope that for myself as well. May we all journey to that place as older parents looking back and just remembering the good parts.

Jean Mayer  49:57  
Danielle, I have a questions for you because your age group is 10 and under, and you see this evolving, and now that you've developed the the peer to peer element, where, again, you have your alumni group, and I can tell you, yeah, already having experience with a child that fits in this criteria, that once they hit adolescence, I had a different child at seventh grade than I had at eighth grade, then I had a freshman year, then I had sophomore year, then I had junior year and senior year, and I was like, what are we gonna get? What do we get this year? I mean, it was like, you would come with this set of tools and there were times -because there are adolescent years, I would just be curious, like - 1.  We love to always have guests back on a podcast. If your business platform does migrate into that area and you start finding yourself working within that age group too, I will hope that you are able to come back to us and talk about what that looks like, because many of our listeners also have adolescents too, right? Brittney and I talk about that a lot, you know, especially because she has older children that, again, once adolescents hit that, completely changed the framework of her parenting, like she referenced it here, but like, it was totally different. It was not the same way. And so that's a different set of skills that comes. And in fact, we're having that right now. I'm about to jump into that transition with my autistic kid, and I'm like, okay, everything that I was doing doesn't work anymore. But I can tell you, even just with this kind of, you know, our kids that don't fit into any particular box don't have that diagnosis or label. I was like, every year, I was like, okay, well, that's not the kid that was last year. What am I getting this year? You know, also normalizing, I think, like, normalizing that that is a normal trend. And if you do like, I would love, love, love to have you back, because those parents are going to be so hungry and thirsty for like, okay, what tools in the toolbox do you got for me?

Danielle Bettmann  52:15  
Yeah, I anticipate that that is probably the direction I'll go, and I'll wait to figure it out on my own guinea pigs before I tell anybody else what to do, because having a nine and 10-year-old even right on that brink, and I've always kind of aged up a little bit of my advice with what I've now done in my own home. Because, again, textbooks are one thing. I don't want to start telling parents of teens I got it all figured out. Here's what you need to do, because that's not going to translate at all, So yes, I will keep you updated.

Brittney Crabtree  52:48  
We love that. Thank you so much for being here today. Where so, if they want to listen to you on your own podcast, which we are actually hoping to be a guest on soon - they can search for Failing Motherhood - that's the title of the podcast, correct? 

Danielle Bettmann  53:06  
Yep.

Brittney Crabtree  53:07  
Give us a quick overview of Failing Motherhood, what do you guys talk about on there?

Danielle Bettmann  53:10  
Okay, so Failing Motherhood is every other episode is an interview, and then a solo episode and the interviews are really intentionally picked experts or moms next door, who answer the question, first, have you ever felt like you were failing motherhood? And they speak really openly, honestly, and vulnerably about what that has looked like for them. And then they kind of share some of their parenting journey, and, you know, any unique insight that they have to share. And so over 150 episodes now - there is an expert that gives representation to kind of your journey or your story, where every mom can kind of feel seen by those conversations. And then the solo episodes are digging more deeply into parenting, neurodiverse and strong-willed kids that we've been talking about today, and, you know, more tangible, practical tidbits with parenting strategies kind of built in. So that's kind of the overall what you can expect. And yes, on every podcast platform, wherever you're listening to this, you can go ahead and find it. And failingmotherhood.com, has kind of a playlist of our most listened to episodes, as well as where to start if you have a kiddo like this. 

Brittney Crabtree  54:27  
Perfect. I love the the duality of both of those kind of you know, episode options. That's really cool. And then if they want to get in touch with you about the parenting groups is parentingwholeheartedly.com.

Danielle Bettmann  54:41  
Yeah. 

Brittney Crabtree  54:41  
And what can they find there? They can sign up for the program. You know, what else is available there?

Danielle Bettmann  54:46  
Yeah, the main thing, the main free resource that I want to get in as many hands as possible is my Masterclass. It's a free training. It's about an hour and a half, and I go into detail about kind of the trait list we talked about here, the four to five misconceptions of what's not working and why for parenting kiddos like this, we talk about why, you know, it's not just consequences, it's not just consistency, it's not just, you know, these other things that you think it is and what it needs to be instead. And I really recommend listening to that or watching that with your parenting partner, so you have much more shared language and perspective around -are you seeing what I'm seeing? This is why this is so frustrating for me and being able to have backup. So that is kind of the first thing. It's called Calm and Confident. It is parenting your strong-willed kid without crushing their spirit or walking on eggshells in a kind and firm way. So if that is really aligned with kind of your next step, then I would definitely recommend diving into that first, and then you can always find more information on how to work with me. And there's kind of an application process on the back end where then we meet and make sure we're aligned. And go ahead and get you started.

Brittney Crabtree  56:00  
I love it. Thank you. I appreciate that. Check out the Masterclass, check out the website and check out the podcast. We will link all of this in our show notes. If you want to find us, you can email us at hello@momstalkautism, and we have our website, momstalkautism.com of course, leave us a review on any podcast platform you choose to listen to us on. It really helps bump up our listenership people, when they search for a parenting podcast or an autism podcast, it comes up higher in the list if there are lots of reviews. And you know, of course, we want the highest review that you feel deemed to give us, of course, and we want you to listen to Danielle's podcast and go rate and review her as well. It will help hers also. So thank you so much for being here today, Danielle, it has been an absolute pleasure. I have thought and applied some of the things that you've talked about today, even in my own life. I'm going to be thinking about it, and I really want to listen to that Masterclass. So appreciate it.

Danielle Bettmann  57:01  
Absolutely. Thanks again for having me. 

Brittney Crabtree  57:03  
Thank you everyone for being here. Have a great day. Bye.