Breaking Free of Society's Expectations with Erin Spahr, LCPC, LCMHC, PMH-C

How can we create a more equitable world that supports motherhood?

My guest today, Erin Spahr, is a licensed therapist, mother, feminist, podcast host, and maternal mental health advocate. She uses a feminist lens in her work with mothers in her private practice and strives to help mothers free themselves from oppressive societal expectations and find more self-confidence and self-compassion. 

Our conversation today spans cultural conditioning, matriscentric feminism, internalized patriarchy, and feminine rage.  We cover what feminism is not, how the patriarchy shows up on a daily basis and affects men too, and tangible next steps on how to reset and forge ahead trying to raise kind, accepting kids.

IN THIS EPISODE, WE COVERED...

• How feminism isn’t necessarily “equal to be fair”
• The stage of feminism that’s needed most today
• What to do with your feminine rage in the years to come

DON'T MISS-

• A simple, yet radical way to fight back today

// MENTIONED IN THE EPISODE //
Matricentric Feminism by Andrea Riley
Mom Rage: The Everyday Crisis of Modern Motherhood by Minna Dubin
Song: Labour by Paris Paloma

// CONNECT WITH ERIN SPAHR //
Instagram: @‌feminist.mom.therapist
Feminist Mom Podcast: www.feministmompodcast.com
Private Practice Website: www.erinspahrtherapy.com (available to folks in North Carolina and Maryland)
Inclusive Provider Directory: www.inclusiveproviders.com

I believe in you + I'm cheering you on.
Come say hi!  I'm @‌parent_wholeheartedly on Insta.
Apply to work together: parentingwholeheartedly.com/Apply

Transcript

Erin Spahr  0:00  
Women feel like we're supposed to naturally know how to be caregivers. We're taught that this is like an innate bond, right? That you're supposed to just have right away, and you're supposed to know what to do. I think that's part of the feeling of failure you're talking about is one that doesn't match, because these are actually skills. Parenting or caregiving is like really important skills that take practice, they take experience, they take creativity, they take problem-solving. But we say that they're just natural, as a way to not compensate or really value the work.

Danielle Bettmann  0:43  
Ever feel like you suck at this job? Motherhood, I mean. Have too much anxiety and not enough patience? Too much yelling, not enough play? There's no manual, no village, no guarantees. The stakes are high. We want so badly to get it right, but this is survival mode. We're just trying to make it to bedtime. So if you're full of mom guilt, your temper scares you, you feel like you're screwing everything up, and you're afraid to admit any of those things out loud - this podcast is for you. This is Failing Motherhood. I'm Danielle Bettmann, and each week we'll chat with a mom ready to be real, sharing her insecurities, her fears, her failures and her wins. We do not have it all figured out. That's not the goal. The goal is to remind you you are the mom your kids need. They need what you have. You are good enough, and you're not alone. I hope you pop in earbuds, somehow sneak away and get ready to hear some hope from the trenches. You belong here, friend, we're so glad you're here.

Danielle Bettmann  1:58  
Hey, it's Danielle. Thank you so much for being here. I'm so excited to introduce you to my guest today. Feminism gets a bad rap, but Erin Spahr is here to help you embrace it. She is a Licensed Therapist, mom, feminist, podcast host, and maternal mental health advocate. She uses the feminist lens in her work with moms and strives to help them free themselves from oppressive societal expectations to find more self-confidence and self-compassion. She hosts The Feminist Mom Podcast where she discusses the intersection of feminism and motherhood with a lot of inspiring guests. So go check that out. She recently launched the Inclusive Provider Directory, a directory that serves as a vital link for connecting moms, birthing individuals, and families in the United States and Canada, with perinatal providers prioritizing inclusivity and identity, affirming care. She also sees clients in her private practice in North Carolina and Maryland and lives in North Carolina with her husband and two kids. Our conversation today touches on society's expectations for everyone. It talks about feminism, matricentric feminism, internalized patriarchy, and feminine rage. We cover what feminism is not, how the patriarchy shows up in our daily lives and affects men as well, and tangible next steps on how to reset and forge ahead in trying to raise kind and accepting kids in a world seemingly without empathy. This conversation truly felt like much-needed therapy. So let's dive in.

Danielle Bettmann  3:41  
Welcome to Failing Motherhood. My name is Danielle Bettmann, and on today's episode, I'm joined by Erin Spahr, the Feminist Mom Therapist. Thank you, Erin, for joining us today.

Erin Spahr  3:50  
Thank you, Danielle. I'm so happy to be here.

Danielle Bettmann  3:53  
I'm so glad. Okay, so real quick, who are you? Who's in your family?

Erin Spahr  3:57  
Yeah, who am I? That's a big one. So, I guess we'll start with motherhood. I'm a mom of two boys. I have a 12-year-old son and a six-year-old son. I needed a little, a nice, long break in between kids because it was such an adjustment. But I love the spacing between them. 

Danielle Bettmann  4:16  
We had opposite approaches. Mine are 15 months apart.

Erin Spahr  4:19  
Oh, my goodness we should talk about that, because I don't even know how you do that. Really. It's like two babies, so hard. So yeah, and I'm married to my husband, and we have a dog and a cat, so it's a full, full house over here. And the work I do is primarily my day job as a therapist. I work mostly with mothers, so I've been trying to expand a little bit more to fathers who want to be more progressive, like partners, and are trying to figure out, like how to do that. I also work with therapists and healers, because there are a lot of parallels with the work that mothers are doing. There's a lot of you know, caregiving burnout and things that are really overlapping. So that's the work I do. I have a podcast as well called The Feminist Mom Podcast, where I talk about my passion, which is the intersection of feminism and motherhood I have lots of guests and we talk about all kinds of things related to the society that we're living in, mothering in, and that feels as relevant as ever, continues to be super relevant on Instagram. I talk also a lot about these topics, as well as a lot of, like, political sort of commentary, and I'm sure we'll get into some of that today.

Danielle Bettmann  5:36  
Yes, yes, very relevant, but one thing at a time, so we'll start at the top. So I like to humanize all of the guests that come onto my podcast because you are experts in your field, and yet so relatable. So have you ever felt like you were failing motherhood, or known a mom who has?

Erin Spahr  5:55  
Oh yeah, yeah. I mean, I think every mother I would assume will feel that at some point. I guess at this point, I've developed a lot of self-compassion, so I don't really think of it as failing anymore. I make tons of mistakes. Life is messy, and I have strengths and weaknesses. So, yeah, I've come to a place where I really embraced that. But early on, oh my goodness, especially in the beginning, I absolutely felt like I was, I was failing a lot. 

Danielle Bettmann  6:32  
Well, I don't want to say good but welcome to The Club. In your work with moms, when they use that word, I feel like I'm failing. What is that most often related to?

Erin Spahr  6:42  
I think often it's related to sort of not meeting all of the expectations that society has told us as moms that we need to meet. I think that's because the expectations are too high that really nobody can meet them unless they have, like, a lot of privileges, a lot of support, and a lot of folks don't. A lot of folks who are sort of trying to measure themselves up to a really high standard, they can't meet that, and they're trying to do this on their own. Often even their partners aren't carrying their full weight because of how we socialize men and women differently, and so there's just this like measure yardstick that that just feels unattainable, even when you know they're working so hard, right? It doesn't usually reflect the amount of effort and care and creativity and all of that that is going into parenting, unfortunately. So that's a cultural problem. This is a style of problem that's not an individual failure.

Danielle Bettmann  7:49  
Yes, yes. Well said, and so important to name, because when you're suffering in shame and isolation, very much feels like it's just you.

Erin Spahr  7:59  
Absolutely and usually it starts with, you know, why can't I feed my baby the way I feel like I'm supposed to feed my baby, or, why can't I get my baby to sleep through the night when I'm told that they're supposed to be sleeping through the night in a particular way, like this idea that I'm supposed to have control as the parent, as a mother, and I can't control this little person, which, you can't control people. They are not robots, and that mismatch is really hard when the expectations are really not accurate to begin with, that a lot of us are sort of taught. So, often beginning it's really like normalizing there's all kinds of ways to feed your baby. There are all kinds of ways to approach sleep. There's no right or wrong way. There's figuring out what's working for everyone. And that's a journey, and that takes time and experience and it's hard when you want to feel like an expert from the beginning. I was like, I'm a good student. Let me research my way to feeling successful. Let me look at everything about breastfeeding and try to, you know, master it right? And it's like, you can't master all of it and even with that, you can't hack some of these things. A lot of it's like, temperament and just differences in babies. 

Danielle Bettmann  9:19  
No, that's the perfect segue into all the research. So give a quick shout-out to your resume. So let's, let's paint the full spectrum of, you know, relatability and expertise. What has created the path to where you are today?

Erin Spahr  9:34  
Oh, my goodness, what has been the path? I mean, there's a lot of elements. I feel like as a mom, I was the first one in kind of my friend group, my family to become a mom. I'm the oldest sister and oldest daughter. I have that kind of oldest-daughter energy, where I want to do things really well and pave the way, right? I think back when I became a mom in 2012, you know, the Attachment Parenting was the thing that, you know now we have Gentle Parenting, Conscious Parenting, it was like a more intense sort of flavor, kind of like, I think, developed, I guess, by Dr. Sears, or at least that's who was talking about it at the time, and so I was really committed to being an extended nursing mom, who had my baby in a sling, and I didn't co-sleep with my first baby, but I did my second. I worked. So I was trying to navigate all of Mom's work. I worked outside of the home, I want to say that. So trying to navigate, like, how do I create this bond, this attachment with my baby, where I'm very responsive. I really didn't want either of my kids to cry, so I had a lot of expectations of myself that were really high. And, you know, some things felt really good to me to like, kind of stick to my gut and figure out what I liked and some things. Now looking back, I'm like, oh, young parent, Erin, you could have just eased up on yourself, you know. So, yeah. So as far as, like, my resume, as far as a parent, it's been a journey to letting things go. I also could have recently figured out that I have ADHD, which a lot of women are discovering in their 30s and 40s, and, you know, just having this lens that I didn't have about why I was struggling when, I always knew I had some anxiety, which often women get diagnosed with anxiety much more than ADHD, because it doesn't look the way it presents in little boys, right? We think of ADHD. We think about little boys who can't sit still, right? We don't think about high achieving, you know, smart girls who, internally, a lot is bouncing around, but externally, I could sit in my seat. I was compliant, you know, because of all the ways I was socialized. So it's been a journey to really think about, you know why motherhood, particularly, really, like, made it hard for me to use some of the coping skills that I must have been using and finding motherhood both over stimulating at times, and like boring and like under stimulating 

Danielle Bettmann  12:26  
Super under-stimulating.

Erin Spahr  12:28  
So, that's been a personal journey. And then as far as, like, my sort of professional journey, you know, as becoming a mom, kind of early on in my career as a therapist, I was sort of realizing how challenging this thing was, to do this parenting thing, and really like wondering, what about folks with less resources, like both financial resources but internal, like psychological resources, like, what was going on there? It's sort of this club that you kind of join all of a sudden. You're like, wait, people have been doing this? This whole time? You know, from the perspective of someone who doesn't have kids, or isn't around kids, it can feel like parenting is different than it really is. So it's so intense. So I just became really passionate and trying to support moms. Over time, really sitting with so many mothers, I've really been able to kind of see how much of the suffering that folks are having is really connected to our society. Our culture is patriarchal. The whole world has patriarchy. It's not just the US-specific, but it really influences the way we treat mothers, or we treat families, kids. I was seeing like, you know, we think about postpartum depression. Often we have this idea of this, like a hormonal thing that's happening. It's sort of mysterious. There are risk factors, but like, you just get it, or you don't. It's like something that's very biological, and there is a biological component, there is a hormonal component, but that has been way overstated compared to all of the cultural elements that we can probably get into. So I really developed this feminist lens, and it's something that I can't unsee. You know, once you see it, it's like, you look at why mothers are struggling to such a large degree, there's a reason. So that's been something that I've been really passionate about, trying to talk about and address and see if we can move things forward.

Danielle Bettmann  14:44  
Yeah, yeah, let's do just that. So start with, like, the most elementary vocabulary, what is feminism and what isn't it?

Erin Spahr  14:54  
Feminism has gotten a lot of attention, certainly online. There are ideas, about what feminism is and how feminism has failed, and feminism is blamed for all kinds of things, but really in its like most simplest form, it's really about equality, or sometimes equity of genders, right? So equality and the fact that we all should have access to the same opportunities and freedoms regardless of gender. So it's basically like it should be fair, right? We shouldn't give advantages to certain groups over others, right? I think most people probably agree with that, but the way we have sort of seen feminism in pop culture, or how it's like been talked about, it's certainly gone through different waves, and there are different expressions of it. Sometimes people have heard it as women are better, or women deserve more, or women are victims, and you know, all of this stuff that I don't really agree with. And there are also ways that feminism has been talked about in different communities. So actually, one of the sort of subsets of feminism that I really have come to use in my work is something called matricentric feminism. So matricentric, it's a mouthful, but like meaning motherhood centered, motherhood focused. It's this idea that traditional feminism, when we think about previous waves, has gone through different waves of different focuses over time, was focused more on, let's say, helping women to be able to hold a job, get a credit card, you know, work in places where men were typically working, and that was a really important movement to help women be able to do that, but in a lot of ways, it denied women their ability to really be mothers and like, step into motherhood, because we kind of had to deny our motherhood right to go into a workplace that's been created by men, for men. A lot of women felt like they had to be like men. So it felt like motherhood really didn't have a place, because this is where the equity piece comes in. After all, we're not equal in needs, in the ways that our bodies work. There are differences, and it's okay to acknowledge the differences while still advocating for fairness, right?  So that matricentric feminism, which is like, they're a bunch of really wonderful thought leaders on that, like Andrea O'Reilly is the one that is known to talk about matricentric feminism, and has talked about how motherhood was sort of the unfinished business of feminism. So when you have this approach, you're not saying that mothers are better than non-mothers. You're saying that we need to be centering caregivers and really children in the way that we create and build society. Right now, a lot of the stress folks feel is because there's this conflict between our stated values, we care about children. We care about, you know, gosh, mothers are so revered in our society, right? Like in words, but not in actions. We don't have paid parental leave on a national scale. We don't have affordable child care in many places, the way that our workplaces are set up and schools you have to pick up your kid at like 2:45 but the work day doesn't end till four or five. These things don't actually work for mothers. They still work for this idea of men going to work with somebody at home who could do all of the caretaking and the home stuff, right? So that's part of this idea of like matricentric feminism, to sort of work toward a society that is better than others. I also want to say there's also an importance to talking about feminism from an intersectional standpoint and matricentric feminism is part of that, intersecting identities impact who we're advocating for in our feminist movement. So like you want to not only just consider gender, but we want to consider things like race, ethnicity, and sexual orientation in how we express our feminism. We can't just focus on the most privileged white women succeeding in like a girl boss way, there is a way to critique that idea of feminism. We want to be able to look at how women in all kinds of identities experience patriarchy in addition to other forms of oppression. So I hope that was elementary enough. I'm not always good at like, breaking things down in a super clear way.

Danielle Bettmann  20:17  
It's a lot of big words, but that's okay. We can handle it, and for moms who are multitasking, they'll just have to come back, take it off two times speed, and re-listen.

Erin Spahr  20:28  
Okay, yeah, I'm working on that.

Danielle Bettmann  20:31  
No, it's great. I want to just reiterate a point you made it kind of towards the beginning. Defining that as equal does not always mean the same, like the same playing field, same needs, same on paper, being able to compete at the same game. Because I often tell my kids that fair does not mean the same. It means that both person's needs are met, and those are different needs. You are different people. You're different ages. You know, you have different interests. So it's not always going to look fair on paper as in same, so bringing that lens to feminism, I think is a really important thing to differentiate, because so often without those definitions, we can just quickly make a lot of assumptions that aren't fair or appropriate. So I totally agree that it feels like the standards right now are that you have to, like the meme goes around a lot. We have to work like we don't have kids, and then be a mom like we don't have a job, and it's impossible, right?

Erin Spahr  21:36  
Or you're a stay-at-home mom, but you don't feel respected, you don't have as much power in the relationship, right? There's a lot that you're losing often to have that life. So it feels like there's like, there's no way, no winning. No way feels good. 

Danielle Bettmann  21:56  
No. It's such an unpaid labor job, and you have to make huge sacrifices in your career if you ever want to return to it. It's looked down upon that no resume appropriately represents your skill set. I do think, you know, every year on Mother's Day, it's like a big oh, we owe everything to our moms, and then the rest of the year we're just like catered to the side again because there are no actual actions and resources that, especially in our country, pragmatically and practically and sustainably support moms and families. I 100% agree. So you talked about patriarchy, and a lot of your work through therapy is deconstructing internalized patriarchy. So we talked about a lot of the ways that that shows up already. But what are some more examples of just like patriarchy daily?

Erin Spahr  22:53  
Yeah, so I feel like practical ways that I see this like showing up for a lot of women is for example, feeling like they must do a lot of the caregiving and the housework because they've internalized this idea that it's a woman's like job. It's a reflection of your identity, right? So even if, let's say, you try to have a more equal partnership, your mother-in-law comes into your home and things aren't put away, or, you know, the kids are wearing, or, like, not wearing nice clothes, or whatever it is. A lot of times it's the women who feel most judged for it because we feel like we're responsible. So it's easy for them, like women to feel, to get really perfectionistic, to feel in control. Then often we're kind of painted as nagging, and controlling, like our standards are too high, right? I think a lot of men in relationships with women have seen those things modeled like the high-strung mother who's like, you can't meet her standards. Then a lot of men have been sort of socialized to take a back seat around parenting caregiving, look to her as the only one who really knows, like, who holds the mental load, who knows what you need. So  I think a lot of women have a really hard time, even if they start to see that, to like, let go of that because it's so threatening to our identity. So that's like, one way it can show up, like in relationships. I also like the idea that there are all these different motherhood myths that women feel like we're supposed to naturally know how to be caregivers. We're taught that this is like an innate bond, right? That you're supposed to just like have right away, and you're supposed to know what to do. I think that's part of the feeling of failure you're talking about is like one that doesn't match, because these are skills like parenting or caregiving, are like really important skills that take practice, they take experience, they take creativity, they take problem-solving. But we say that they're just natural as a way not to compensate or really value the work, right? I think a lot of women have bought into that, and maybe don't even realize it, like, I just am supposed to do this. I'm supposed to suffer. We've attached suffering to motherhood and so we can talk a little about ways to counteract that, but it's like a radical act. I think of this when I'm sitting down and I'm resting in front of my kids when they ask for something, I don't immediately hop to it and jump to What can I get you? Or when I let my husband respond and just sit back and fulfill the needs. Those are radical things because they go against the sort of cultural ideas of what mothers do, which is to serve others, to not have needs, to be endlessly patient and loving, and that's not a life I want to live.

Danielle Bettmann  26:12  
Yeah, and so much of that is illuminating and kind of an awakening because it is just the status quo. It's what we've been immersed in from day one of our childhoods. It takes a lot to zoom out with a different lens and start to question things. I love the way that you said we don't say that these are skill sets, and we say that they're natural as a way to not value that contribution and what it takes and means to society, and I would equate that to my work as a parenting coach. I mean, 99% of my clients are afraid to let anyone else know that they are going and investing in parenting coaching because there's somehow a stigma that this is an innate skill that you should already know how to do, and if you are struggling, that's embarrassing, that's on you, like, don't let anyone know that. That's incredibly damaging to not only that parent's mental health and like, their own well-being and identity and all the other things, but it truly devalues the work of parenting to just assume that we should all just know, it's so natural, we should all just know what we're doing and that it means that little like, that's crazy.

Erin Spahr  27:35  
And it's natural for women. So if it's natural to women, then men can't really get it. They can't really understand. That's not respectful to men like men are really capable, and we actually do have research that shows like the bond and stuff that you create with your kid, and your attunement, like, all of that is really related to how much contact you have and with sort of being a caregiver. So the more experience you have as a caregiver, the better you are at it. And you know, thinking about like in history, how families worked, you know, families were in communities.  It wasn't just this nuclear family setup that we have now where, you know, you were all kind of figuring it out on our own, like it might have been more natural to when you were sort of seeing families around you. You're helping out with your cousins and aunts and uncles and parents, like a lot of us are very split off, and so many of us have never been around children or babies. I didn't have like, lots of babies around, you know. So it feels like it is a new skill that many of us have to seek out because we're not really around it.

Danielle Bettmann  27:35  
Yeah. I mean, in the same way as, like, cooking and domestic work, and cleaning and things like that. It's just not passed down in the same type of ways. I felt like a failure, just like a wife of not knowing, how are you supposed to deep clean this? What am I supposed to be doing every month? Like, it's all just like a language you're supposed to be taught. Like, subconsciously, I don't even know, it's absolutely unrealistic.

Erin Spahr  29:17  
Socialization makes it so that you feel responsible for that, and so you're likely to kind of go and do the research to sort of think, okay, I think I'm supposed to deep clean. How do I do that? I feel like that starts so early. I mean, thinking about when folks find out they're pregnant and they get a registry together and often it's women who have internalized that. Like I'm supposed to create some kind of registry. I'm supposed to gather stuff and research the heck out of it and talk to other women and find out what it is, and go online and so, like, even we don't have these answers, but we have learned that it's our responsibility to go find the answers. And that creates, I think, a lot. The balance for folks from very early on. 

Danielle Bettmann  30:04  
Absolutely. I talk with my clients about sometimes I call it an algorithm exposure. You know, just how different that what you see and read daily can be compared to your child's other parent that added up over years and years and years creates a huge divide in the number of reps and the strength of that muscle and the skill set that you come to each of these moments with. So of course, it's going to feel really uncomfortable or one-sided when you're parenting, because even just that alone contributes a lot to how you show up.

Erin Spahr  30:43  
Yeah, yeah. So a lot of women that are experiencing a lot of a lack of equality or equity in the home, they're also feeling it in maybe in the workplace. We know that when men become fathers, they get what's called, fatherhood, like the dad boost, right? It actually helps them seem like better candidates. They're seen as more dedicated, you know, because they're family men, we have this idea. While women, when we become others, we're seen as less committed, as more of a liability. We're more torn between, you know, home and work. So even though we know that women are even more qualified, you know, as a mom, you gain all these skills. As a parent, you gain transferable skills, and all that. So we're experiencing it in all these different ways, like, you know, in the public sphere, but also our homes. And a lot of women are burnt out and feeling resentful. And this is all part of the patriarchy. This is like a society that quietly, in some ways, subtly in certain ways, sometimes it's invisible, which also makes it hard to name. It's like I often see the comments online, from folks in feminist content, usually they're people who are not feminists, and usually they're men, and they'll say, like, what's one, right that women don't have, that men have? It is almost like it exists in a very tangible way that you can, like, see, and certainly, we could, we could say that about reproductive health, bodily autonomy is something, but a lot of things that women experience are invisible, right? We talk about sexual violence. So then the rates of violence towards women by men, like a lot of that. It's not a law, it's not about rights. It's about the experience that women are feeling and the ways that we feel like we need to communicate and protect ourselves.  These are all things we've learned from being in the culture,

Danielle Bettmann  32:56  
Even just the pink tax on menstrual products and the pink tax.

Erin Spahr  32:59  
The pink tax, exactly. So it happens in all these ways that cumulatively add up to a really different experience by gender.

Danielle Bettmann  33:15  
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Danielle Bettmann  35:15  
So because this is such a nuanced conversation, I do want to be able to address that, you know, it's not the man that you're looking at fault, right? And as quickly as you want to jump to not all men. The patriarchy is so much bigger than that. So how does the patriarchy also do a disservice to men?

Erin Spahr  35:34  
Oh, my goodness. I mean, I'm working on a book proposal about like, both how men and women can deconstruct the patriarchy, because I think that this is like something that's needed, and think we're at a place where we need this, because men are, I mean, we talk about this sort of, like male loneliness epidemic. Men are unhappy. Like the suicide rates for men are pretty high. A lot of men have not been socialized to be vulnerable, to be emotional. We think about it again, part of the patriarchy is we value things that we associate with men with "masculinity". And I put that in quotes because those are socially constructed, like, what is masculine and what is feminine? The things that we see as feminine right, like nurturing, weak, and emotional. Men have learned not to be that. They feel threatened by being associated with things that we see as feminine right, which says that we value masculinity over femininity, right? So if men are going through something, which you know they're human, they don't feel like they have many men don't feel like they can really turn specifically to other men to talk about these things, sometimes even to other women. I think it hurts men socially. I actually think a lot of you know, women, in a lot of ways, we're better, just like any marginalized group is better at creating community out of like that necessity, where I think men's loneliness and this internalization of being strong really impacts them. I think from a parenting perspective, like you know, even though parenting is so hard, it's also so rewarding to have a connection with a child. So for men to not be getting also the benefits of really being like, invested in - I know some men certainly are. Lots of men are, but they're still kind of behind women in this way, and I think that that gives them a disservice as well. I mean, men live longer when they're married to women, and that's because we, like, take care of them in a lot of ways, you know. So absolutely, I think that they're not losing anything by looking at that stuff in themselves. It can be really hard, maybe losing, like, a sense of their identity initially, if their identity is built on being masculine in a very kind of, like patriarchal, traditional way, that can feel like a loss. But usually, I see folks feeling so much better when they can let go of some of that, especially alongside their partners.

Danielle Bettmann  38:21  
Yeah, yeah, but you need the safe container to kind of do some of that reckoning in, and usually that's going to look like either a support group, a healthy marriage, or a therapist, and even just getting men to feel okay with being in those spaces sometimes can be really challenging. That's not because they don't have good intentions. It's because of these really powerful systems that we're inside.

Erin Spahr  38:49  
Yeah, I do think that women are bearing the brunt of that, right? So by men not doing that a lot of times, that means that women are making up for it or feel like they need to parent their partners. I see a lot of women who feel like, not only they're parenting their kids, maybe doing their inner child work trying to heal their stuff and trying to teach their partner kind of how to be in partnership with them, how to relate to them, how to relate to their kids. So I do think we want men to try to be uncomfortable and go toward healing some of this stuff in themselves. 

Danielle Bettmann  39:29  
I mean, it really is not only for their good, but like, for your whole family's goals. I mean, as it supports, it lifts everyone when you feel more supported. But yeah, the number one reason why families don't end up doing parenting work in the world that I'm in is because they can't get their partner on board. Number one reason. My work is unique because a lot of motherhood spaces for parenting resources may have a more single focus. Focus on just one caregiver and being able to kind of support the caregiver who is doing the mental load and the research, but I insist on working with the whole family so that everybody is hearing the same thing, the same language, the same tools at the same time. And there's still just a tremendous amount of families that aren't ready for that, and that breaks my heart every time I meet one of them, because it's like, oh, you don't know how, how much better things would be.

Erin Spahr  40:25  
It's so hard.

Danielle Bettmann  40:29  
So, changing lanes and talking about current events, you know, we're chatting not too long after the US election, and many are caught, I think, in a spiral that you mentioned on a recent Instagram post, of like, wondering if we're being too dramatic or not dramatic enough, and then constantly, kind of filtering between the two. Where are you at right now today? 

Erin Spahr  40:52  
Oh my goodness, yeah, today, I think I'm like, actually in a place of going inward, just honestly, I was so invested in this election and leading up to it and trying to do my part and be politically active, you know, certainly. I'm now just taking a break from being as sort of conscious, but that's this moment, and I know myself, and I'm very like social justice minded, so it definitely changes the by the day,

Danielle Bettmann  41:30  
Yeah, no, that's totally fair. So looking ahead to the next four-ish years, what work is there to do? 

Erin Spahr  41:41  
It's a lot of work to do. It's a lot of work to do. I mean, what can we learn from this election? I think again, bringing that intersectionality piece, I think a lot of folks will have different experiences or reactions to the election based on a number of identities and sort of like where they are in the country, immigration status, sexual orientation, there's a lot. I know black women came out, 92% I think of black women voted for Kamala Harris and I know, well, I know they're not all one feeling, but like, I've heard many black women feeling really just like, kind of over it right now, and just feeling like we did it. And similar to how we talk about moms moms have been holding up the economy and holding up the culture. I think black women particularly feel that like that they just like come out politically like especially on the left, and it's pretty frustrating that, again, about 50% of white women voted for, you know, a man who is a misogynist, someone who has been convicted of, you know, sexually assaulting a woman, many, probably multiple women. You know, all of the values that Trump has a spouse to been certainly very patriarchal, not very pro-women. It's really disappointing to sort of know that. So the work we, you know, have to do is continue to how do we heal that? I think that this election was very complicated. And so some people say, you know, it was the economy, and some people say, Oh, it was race. And some people say they didn't want to vote for a woman. Some people, you know, there's also all of this, like misinformation, propaganda, and like distrust of media news and trust of politicians and trust of, like, the medical community, right? I know the MAHA Make America Healthy Again Movement was like a big part of this for mothers and a distrust in kind of the current administration's approach to health, and so there's a lot. So I think in some ways, we're so siloed, we're getting our news sources like you said algorithms like our algorithms are different. What we're consuming is different. So that's a huge problem to sort of think about, I think we're living in different realities in a lot of ways. But I do think the fact that so many folks were able, able to sort of say, I'm gonna choose this man who has these particular values over a pretty qualified woman, whether very qualified if nothing else, she was qualified. I mean, I'm not saying people can't have their opinions, but the standards that we have for her compared to him, like don't match up. So I think we should look at that and our internalized patriarchy, internalized racism and white supremacy, and all of that. It impacts these choices. And certainly, some of us want to do that, and there's a real backlash a lot right now politically to sort of de woke-ify education and, you know, like a rolling back of a lot of that, because I think it's seen as threatening. So I don't know, I'm not a political commentator. I'm a therapist. I talk about feminism, this stuff's hard. But certainly, I think yeah, for women to really kind of think about why so many of us felt comfortable and okay choosing a man who was so, like, it's like, hard for you to talk about him just so awful and like, what does that say about the men that many of us have in our lives, where we've been we have excused bad behavior. We have sort of seen a leader as a strong man, even if he says this, you know, awful stuff. How much of that has been normalized for us versus seeing a woman as, like, not capable of being a serious, powerful leader, you know? I think for many, that's our internalized patriarchy. So, yeah, there's a there's a lot of pieces to this. And again, I think we have to talk about racism as well. It was interesting. In North Carolina, we had the governor, who was one of the candidates. He was also pretty awful, but he was a black man and he didn't win. But I think some of the values that he had were very similar to Donald Trump's, and so if he was a white man, he might have won, even though he had some pretty serious, opinions about women and marginalized folks. So anyway, I think it's like, all of this right now, we're kind of in this place where we have to kind of decide, like, are we gonna go back? I think many of us are not gonna go back, like, willingly. So we're gonna have to keep pushing and using our brains, and using our rage, our feminine rage for justice, which is what I think it historically has been used for, right?

Danielle Bettmann  41:41  
Yeah. I think we can owe a lot of thanks to feminine rage in the past for the progress that we were able to make. And it feels so incredibly disheartening to feel like we have lost progress, but like yeah, the measure of striding ahead and feeling like when I had kids 10 years ago, the world I imagined raising them in, and the values I wanted to instill in them and the conversations we were having, I didn't imagine that at this point, when they're entering Middle School, we would be in this huge new awakening of bullying, just normalizing bullying again. This new wave of like, I felt like the body positivity that we've worked hard on is now going back, where skinny culture is back. I feel like we have lost so much ground, and being able to be different is good, and like, express yourself and be yourself, it feels like we are entering a whole new territory of regression, and that's incredibly disheartening as a parent. When I went to your Instagram a couple of days ago, you posted something similar, where it posed the question, how do we nurture empathy respect, and cooperation within our home when it feels like beyond our doors that they're shouting against these very values. Have you found an answer?

Erin Spahr  48:46  
I mean, I just was sort of expressing, like this feeling that I share. I mean, I've got two white boys who I want to be empathetic and kind and accepting and open. I think the good news and the bad news is like, that we only have so much control over who our kids turn out to be. I think we have some, and that's the good news is that I think that there is a lot we can do in our homes to help this next generation. I think we are doing that. I mean, just teaching your kids how to apologize, how to do a really good repair, especially by modeling that modeling repair, and my favorite parenting things like teaching your kids modeling empathy. There's a lot we can do, but it is hard and scary, and I think we should just name that to feel like there are also these powerful forces trying to sort of shift the values that we have. So it's a lot of work, and I think we have to be really intentional about the conversations we have and the people we have in our communities and the resources that we seek out to try to instill those values. I do think that parents actually do have a lot of power, though. You know, as a therapist who sits with folks who are unpacking stuff from their childhoods and their experiences with their parents, right? Like it gets in there, even if you don't always know how it gets in there or what gets in there, there's a lot, and also, repair again is so helpful. So if some things got in there that you wish didn't, or mistakes you made, it's never too late to say, oh my goodness, I'm so sorry that I made that mistake. I own that. Thank you for telling me. I always reiterate that, because I just think it's it's so powerful, even for adults.

Danielle Bettmann  50:47  
Yeah, never, never, never, never, too late, no matter what age. So if you were in a session with a client, and she's a mom of two daughters, and she is just feeling so much loss and confusion and ultimately, rage right now. How would you recommend she harness that kind of transformation, and what does she do with that?

Erin Spahr  51:12  
Yeah, so the rage is so powerful, and I think that it's very often a very physical experience, and so being able to, like, let that feeling move is important. So I actually see a lot of women with anxiety, and I think of a lot of times there is this, like rage, and it's just anger that they're holding in because they don't feel like they can express anger, and it's not part of our idea of the good mom. If you're somebody who experiences a lot of mom rage, Minna Dubin wrote a really great book about it called Mom Rage, and I'd recommend it. But being able to sort of let it out, is important, usually in a safe place like, I mean, therapy is great. Writing down in your journal, also expressing through arts or movement like music. Those things can all be helpful, we have to kind of do something with it. But it's often really about justice. It's usually about something that has happened that is not right, something's not fair. So there's and that, if it's on behalf of yourself or others, it comes from a place of really caring, caring about people, caring about yourself, caring about your children. I think understanding, like the heart, the love that's sort of underneath that is this rage is like a protective force, this energy that comes from love, right? So being able to say, I refuse to let this thing happen. So what am I going to do with that? I think we can channel in different ways like I said, just the expression of it. I think you can kind of find ways to kind of move through that, but channel it into action. There are a number of ways to get involved, politically, I think people are talking a lot about getting involved politically in your community right now, things are maybe going to go more to the States. And they keep trying to say, we're going to go back to the States. Well, so what's going on in your state, in your community, is, like, really important. So channeling that energy. I also think we can burn out from rage after a while. So recognizing that part of that is like, also finding time for rest or creativity or joy, right? These other things in addition to rage, because we don't want to, like, can't stay at that level. Like, it's not a great long-term sustainable way to kind of take action. It's a great way to get started. It's a great way to sort of kick off things. But then over time, when we don't want to just start and then, like, peter out, we want to be able to be sustainable. So eventually, letting that shift into something that's more like doable and balanced. 

Danielle Bettmann  54:05  
I know, the day after the election, I went to the gym and I put on the Paris Paloma - Labour - song on repeat, and I ran like, four miles.

Erin Spahr  54:16  
Yes, yes.

Danielle Bettmann  54:19  
I'll link the song if you're not familiar,

Erin Spahr  54:22  
She's touring the US and I was like, I need to go. It's really not convenient, but it's like, I want to go to one of her shows and just like, scream that with a bunch of other women. You know?

Danielle Bettmann  54:33  
I have been seeing those videos on TikTok. Very cathartic, yes. So that's one way of processing, getting it out, getting it moving. But yes, sustainably, I think the community is one of the biggest action steps that I think a lot feel is not only necessary but critical. And locally, if you are listening to this podcast at all, in Nebraska, we have a big blue dot. Effort that was a huge source of outreach and things. And so we are collectively finding a Facebook group and then finding chats and connecting Blue Dot moms. So I'll link that in the show notes as well. But I'm sure that there are, I know for sure that those, even itself, are popping up across the country, but you, I'm sure have a ton of local resources as well. So look into, even, you know, opening up that archaic Facebook app if you need to.

Erin Spahr  55:29  
That's my goal. That's what's still good, is the Facebook groups. And, yeah, I've joined one for North Carolina. I think it was like, I don't even know, like Democrats for blue something. I actually met last week with someone who was in my town, it was like a big North Carolina one, but we found each other, and she's like, a family law attorney who's doing this, wonderful work from like, a feminist perspective in her work. We had coffee, and it was, like, really great to just connect with people who get it. I'm not saying we can't be with friends, with people who don't get it, but like, it's really important to have those people who you can like, be rage with.

Danielle Bettmann  56:11  
Yeah. So that's a takeaway for listeners. Is there any other takeaway that they can do today that you would recommend?

Erin Spahr  56:20  
I mean, I'm a huge fan of self-compassion. So whatever you're feeling, if you're feeling rage, if you're like, why am I not feeling rage? What's wrong with me? People experience things differently. We also all have our backgrounds and other things going on in our lives. Some folks may be like, I know my sister's in the thick of it with two little kids. She's got a three and an 18-month-old, not even nine months, anyway, like babies, and she can't even focus on this, right? She has to kind of go inward and go to survival. So I think wherever you are, whatever you're feeling, it usually makes sense. So having a lot of compassion for yourself and then thinking about those feelings are clues to what you might need. So being able to sort of see your emotions as like information that isn't right or wrong. Of course, we want to express our feelings in healthy ways, but having feelings, whatever they are, is just like, neutral, you know? So that's my takeaway, is have a lot of mesh over yourself. You're not the only one feeling this, I promise. You know, use it as a way to think about what this means about what I need? Do I need more support? Do I need a break in some way? Do I need more rest? Do I need more movement? What is this information telling me?

Danielle Bettmann  57:45  
Yeah, yeah, getting curious and not judgmental. Super, super actionable. I mean, I need to hear that just as much as everybody else. Because, you know, one night I'll be crying on my phone, and then the next night I'll be, super despondent, and then the next night I will be like, super in my world, excited about something I have personally coming up. So it's just gonna change so much, and that doesn't mean a whole lot, other than just being able to understand that about myself and have that self-awareness and being conscious about that is so important. Okay, so as we wrap up, how can listeners connect with your work even deeper?

Erin Spahr  58:26  
So you can find me on Instagram, @feminist.mom.therapist. You can also find my podcast wherever you get podcasts, Feminist Mom Podcast and I see clients in North Carolina and Maryland virtually. So you can find that at erinspahrtherapy.com.

Danielle Bettmann  58:46  
Perfect. I have to ask you the question I ask every guest that comes on, which is, how are you the mom your kids need?

Erin Spahr  58:53  
Yeah, I think that's sweet you sort of mentioned that question. I think I am unapologetically myself with my kids. I feel like even with ADHD stuff, I'm not always, like, organized or great at sort of setting rhythms and routines and structures. I noticed, particularly with my oldest that they can just like, come to me with the hard stuff and the feelings, and that is something I really value. Part of how I survived was saying, what are things I care about? This nurturing, like the emotional skills, has been something that I've worked really hard on, and it's really important to me. So I feel like that's been good. Seeing my like boys be able to come to me with their feelings, feels powerful, kind of with what we're talking about. So yeah, I think I feel good about that.

Danielle Bettmann  59:54  
Yeah, as you should. They are lucky to have you. Yes, we are going to have different strengths and weaknesses or opportunities for improvement, or whatever you want to call it, but I think just embracing your flavor of parenting and not just focusing on being so hard on yourself for the things that you are not naturally gravitating towards. ADHD has been a big theme this year on the podcast, my daughter and I both got diagnosed as well, so I'm fully there with you on the routines and rhythms is not our thing, but also the same where my clients live, we can't seem to do family meetings. I'm like, yeah, no, you're probably not going to, so just talk on the way in the car, right? Like, just embrace who you are and your kids will be able to see then that they can do the same for themselves, and that's what we really want.

Erin Spahr  1:00:46  
Exactly. Yes. Love it. Solidarity.

Danielle Bettmann  1:00:50  
Well, thank you so much for your time and your expertise and for joining us today. It has been such a good conversation.

Erin Spahr  1:00:57  
Thank you so much, Danielle, I really appreciate being here.

Danielle Bettmann  1:01:05  
Thank you so much for tuning in to this episode of Failing Motherhood. Your kids are so lucky to have you. If you loved this episode, take a screenshot right now share it in your Instagram stories and tag me. If you love the podcast, be sure that you've subscribed and leave a review so we can help more moms know they are not alone if they feel like they're failing motherhood daily, and if you're ready to transform your relationship with your strong-willed child and invest in the support you need to make it happen, schedule your free consultation using the link in the show notes, I can't wait to meet you. Thanks for coming on this journey with me. I believe in you and I'm cheering you on.