192. Working WITH Demand Avoidance (PDA) to Make the Impossible, POSSIBLE with Lisa

Cooking during daytime hours, running in & out of a store, joining a homeschool group... these may seem like everyday occurrences to some families, but at Lisa's house, they felt impossible.

She was tasked with getting her neurodivergent son up to state curriculum standards last year while homeschooling, but his pathological demand avoidance made cooperation so hard to attain.

NOW - she shares what IS possible now, how her confidence has grown, and what seemed to help when nothing else did.

IN THIS EPISODE, WE COVERED...

• The multi-faceted feelings of failure Lisa struggled with
• The breakthroughs she experienced while we worked together
• The remarkable progress they've been able to make 

DON'T MISS-

• The unorthodox solution that helped her son wash his hair

I believe in you + I'm cheering you on.
Come say hi!  I'm @parent_wholeheartedly on Insta.
Apply to work together: parentingwholeheartedly.com/Apply

Don't forget to leave a rating or review! Thank you!

Transcript

Lisa  0:00  
Before, it just felt like I was a failure. Nothing worked, and it was just constantly trying to put out fires that just weren't gonna go out, like never-ending fires that never extinguished, versus afterward. Okay, we still have at times, those fires, but we had better tools, and we were more successful in either preventing them or calming them down, so to speak. And it really has changed.

Danielle Bettmann  0:35  
Ever feel like you suck at this job? Motherhood, I mean. Have too much anxiety, not enough patience? Too much yelling, not enough play? There's no manual, no village, no guarantees. The stakes are high. We want so badly to get it right, but this is survival mode. We're just trying to make it to bedtime. So if you're full of mom guilt, your temper scares you. You feel like you're screwing everything up, and you're afraid to admit any of those things out loud - this podcast is for you.

Danielle Bettmann  1:09  
This is Failing Motherhood. I'm Danielle Bettmann, and each week we'll chat with a mom ready to be real, showing her insecurities, her fears, her failures, and her wins. We do not have it all figured out. That's not the goal. The goal is to remind you you are the mom your kids need. They need what you have. You are good enough, and you're not alone. I hope you pop in earbuds, somehow sneak away, and get ready to hear some hope from the trenches. You belong here, friend, we're so glad you're here.

Danielle Bettmann  1:49  
Hey, it's Danielle. I am so excited to introduce you to my guest today, an amazing mom to two named Lisa. When we met over a year ago, simple things felt impossible due to her son's diagnoses and needs, and Lisa was continually trying to understand what sensory meltdowns, were and were behavioral outbursts, and couldn't tell the difference between the two. She made every sacrifice she could to set him up for success, but it felt like nothing worked. The clock was ticking to get him to pass grade-level standards as they were homeschooling, yet cooperation felt nonexistent, and now the impossible has become possible. In this episode together, Lisa shares how mind-blowing learning some of the scripts have been in improving her ability to prepare for and completely prevent meltdowns and outbursts before they start. She shares how life-changing it was to find a community with no judgment and find someone who heard and understood her family for the first time, and she shares her transformed outlook on how she manages the inevitable hard days of parenting a neurodivergent child and ultimately has been able to successfully home school despite and through his demand avoidance. I'm so grateful that you got to learn from Lisa. So here is our conversation. 

Danielle Bettmann  3:24  
Welcome to Failing Motherhood. My name is Danielle Bettmann, and on today's episode, I am joined by Lisa, a homeschooling, stay-at-home mom that I got to work with last year in 2024. Lisa, thank you so much for being here. It is such an honor and the biggest compliment ever. So thank you. I am so excited to talk to you. We have so much to talk about, and you have an adventurous history, and a lot in your background that I'm sure I could pick your brain on. But just go ahead and give a quick intro. Who's in your family? 

Lisa  3:56  
It's me, my husband, a 20-year-old daughter, and a nine-year-old son. 

Danielle Bettmann  4:04  
Okay, awesome. And you are a retired military family. Is that correct? 

Lisa  4:07  
Yes. 

Danielle Bettmann  4:08  
So where have you all lived? 

Lisa  4:10  
We have lived in Hawaii, Washington State, Georgia, California, and Virginia. 

Danielle Bettmann  4:16  
Oh my gosh, that's crazy. So how long have you been where you're at now?

Lisa  4:20  
I think almost eight years. 

Danielle Bettmann  4:24  
Okay, so it's been a while, so you're kind of grounded now. Are you gonna be there for the rest of until who knows?

Lisa  4:31  
I don't know, to be determined. 

Danielle Bettmann  4:35  
No, that's great. And have you been homeschooling the whole time? What's kind of your backstory with homeschooling? 

Lisa  4:41  
So with my oldest daughter, we did public school, charter school and homeschool. With my son, we tried registering  him for public school, and he just freaked out, and so then we sent him to private school, and that didn't work well. We got a phone call to come pick him up, and so then after that, we just home schooled him.

Danielle Bettmann  5:06  
Okay, so tell us about your son. 

Lisa  5:09  
So, my son is very active, loves, and is good at math and science. He has, we did get him tested and found out he has sensory processing disorder, dysgraphia, and dyslexia, we suspect probably ADHD, and we are looking to retest him again since he is older. 

Danielle Bettmann  5:36  
When did you get that testing done? 

Lisa  5:38  
We got that testing done right after first grade, so he was probably six or seven. 

Danielle Bettmann  5:47  
And what led you to initially reach out for those diagnoses? 

Lisa  5:51  
So well, at first, I knew something. There was more to it than just him being an active boy, and he mentioned that writing was physically hurting, and with the doctor's visits, everything looked fine, so it wasn't physical. And we were doing home school through an online school. So I mentioned to the teacher, that we tried some of their suggestions, and still he kept saying it was hard. So then when we had his first-grade teacher, I suspect not only had she had experience with kids like him, but I'm pretty sure she had someone in her family as well. I could be wrong, but she mentioned looking at testing him, and finding services that can test. So I looked into that. We were able to test them through a Brain Balance Center, and they ran through all the testing, and that's when we found out that there was actually more to it than that. And so then I just read up on everything and looked for people that knew stuff and still learning stuff.

Danielle Bettmann  7:04  
What was some of that emotional journey for you? Because I'm sure that was validating. 

Lisa  7:10  
For me, it was really hard, because the doctor's visit was always like, oh, he's fine, he's fine. And I was like, no, he's not. There's more going on. And so I felt like I finally got my answers, and I wasn't crazy, and I finally could find the right tools to work with him and stuff. And so I felt like I wasn't crazy anymore. I had answers, and okay, I knew where to start looking, because I had been looking and looking, and I think some of it was I wasn't using the correct words and terminology. So I wasn't pulling up things for dysgraphia or for sensory processing disorder. I was getting all the normal things for you know, for typical kids, not for kids that have that issue. And so it gave me answers, yes. 

Danielle Bettmann  8:10  
So empowering when you feel like you're on the right track and you're in the right place, otherwise, you're so lost. and all of that good intention and all of your ability to meet his needs and solve problems for your family is really confusing, and that's where you get so exhausted, because so much effort and energy is being drained into things that aren't helpful or aren't productive, and that can be really defeating. So how did you end up coming across me? 

Lisa  8:41  
So I came across you because what had been working was not working with him, and so he was just not wanting to listen to me to do any type of school work every day. He was just ending up in tears. We tried all kinds of different schedules. We tried different bulletin flows. We looked into all kinds of different learning styles, parenting styles, and behavior styles. We even tried different since I'm homeschooling, we tried different homeschooling curriculums, and because we have certain requirements for our state we have to meet a certain amount of progress in English and math at certain grade levels that they're in. So it was just like nothing was working. He was always in tears. I was in tears. We were both feeling like we were falling behind and we couldn't catch up, and it was just not good. And I was like, okay, something has to change.  I don't remember what I had typed in for searching, but you popped up. But also you were in one of the homeschool conventions, I think.

Danielle Bettmann  9:58  
Yes, the online Summit.

Lisa  9:59  
Yeah, the online Summit, and you were taught it was about, I don't remember what it was, but it was you who specifically spoke to me and what we were going through at the moment. And I'm like, okay, and I felt like, because he was on the higher age, I remember emailing you, this would be perfect for him, but he's not in the age. He's too old. And you emailed back and said no, because of everything with him and because behaviorally, he was, you know, more at the age that you worked with, and you had a few other people that were going through similar stuff at his age. So you wrote back, said, nope, I got a group of people right where you're at. And so then, yeah, that's how we found you. And so I was like, okay. 

Danielle Bettmann  10:48  
Was there anything that held you back, with the program? 

Lisa  10:51  
Yes. So we were concerned about the cost and if we could make it work, and if it would work. So for us, it was pricey, but we decided we were gonna find a way to make it work. And what helped was the monthly payment plan. And so we found a way to cut costs elsewhere and go ahead and put the money into this. And it definitely was worth it 100%.

Danielle Bettmann  11:21  
So when we first met, you described kind of a day in the life, and some of the things that were strong, you know, you're struggling with and had goals. The biggest priority was to be able to continue homeschooling, due to that, those standards that you kind of had to prove and meet that he was at pace with, what were some of your fears there of like, you know if you weren't going to be able to get this figured out? 

Lisa  11:48  
The biggest fear was him not passing because we knew where we were. The public school system is not a fit for him. It just is not. We know people who are in the system with kids like our son, and we also know people who are in our area who left the school because of kids that are like my son, since private school was not an option, we felt like our only option was home school for him that was right for him, because of all his needs and because of who he is. And so the biggest fear was, okay, he has to learn because that is the law and requirement. He has to do school he has to do school work, there's no getting around that. So what is best for him? For him, what is best is home school, whether it's fully home school at home, whether it's using an online school program or online curriculum, or whatever. But for him, because of all his needs, he has to and so that was one of the things of like, okay, this is what's best for him. And he's fighting me tooth and nail and not wanting to do anything. And so, you know, the biggest fear is, okay, what happens if he were to fail? He's going to be forced to be set in a place that's not right for him, and we're going to have even more problems. And so it was the fear of, okay, if this doesn't work, we're putting him into something that is going to be a whole another can of worms, and that's not right for him, and gonna create more problems than what we had. 

Danielle Bettmann  13:26  
And that's a lot of pressure on your shoulders. So walk us through a couple of examples of some situations that felt almost impossible. I think one of them I remember you telling me about is cooking with him in the room. What were some of those examples of things that were just really challenging at the time? 

Lisa  13:45  
Cooking with him.  So because of his senses, anything, whether it's smell, sight, or sound, all of that affects him to the extreme. And so for me, when it came to eating, I had to wake up early to eat before him. I would skip lunch, honestly, which is not good for me, and then dinner. We would try to feed him first and then let him go, like, on the computer or go to his room to play while we cooked our dinner and ate. So we were eating, like, really late at night, usually after he had eaten, like, you know, seven, eight o'clock at night and stuff. And so it was hard, because, like, the smells bothered him, the sight of the food bothered him, like he could not be in the same room. And so it really did affect everybody. And so it was hard. There are still things have gotten better a little bit, but we still at times, have those days at times, because sometimes it just something sets him off. And so his go-to is: fight. And unfortunately, that is his thing. And so it does make it harder, but then there are days where, after you, we can at least prepare him, and he's fine with certain things in the same room. So now it's more of a roll of the dice, 50/50, whereas before it was there was no way at all.

Danielle Bettmann  15:16  
Yeah, what about like going out shopping? 

Lisa  15:20  
Oh, that was really hard, because we were to the point where, well, I was to the point where I was looking at trying to work around going out shopping, around my husband's schedule and stuff, because anything again, could set him off, but after you and the thing was anything could send him off. And it was trying to figure out, is this a sensory meltdown, or is this a temper tantrum? And that was the biggest thing to try to figure out, okay, is this something he can't control, or is this something he can control and it's him just being strong, willed, and stubborn? And so after you, with all the scripts and stuff and learning, we were learning, okay, he's having a hard time. We're having a hard time. We're all having a hard time. But the scripts helped a lot, because all of a sudden I was like, okay, now I know how to prepare him and how to talk to him, so now I'm able to, if we are going to go somewhere, I'm able to sit down with him and say, Okay, this is what we're doing. We're going to the store. Okay, I know this is going to be hard for you. We need you to be this. This is what we expect from you. If you're having a hard time, then these are the options, and you can choose and stuff. And then also, even, I will include if it's a day where we don't have time and we're just running in to get something and running out, I will include, okay, today is not a day where we add to your wish list. Today is we're only going and getting this, this, and this, and then we will be out. We will pick another day where we can go, and you can add your wish list. So it's not that everything was taken away from him, but he knows what's expected. He also knows okay, this is how, if he is having a hard time, these are a couple options so he can choose and stuff. And sometimes, if my husband is with then one of those options is one of us can leave with him. If it's just one of us, then it depends on what we're in there for, honestly. And so it has gotten better. There are times when he has now flipped the script, where he's better with me and tests dad, but for the most part, he's gotten much better at going out. We've been able to, but I think a lot of it is we've been able to figure out, okay, is this a meltdown, or is it a temper tantrum? And there have been days where he has had a really hard day, and I know, okay, there's no going anywhere, it's sensory and we're gonna stay home. So I've learned a little bit better how to read the signs that he's giving. I mean, we still have our hard days. 

Danielle Bettmann  17:57  
But that's so huge, because you never came in with the goal of fixing him, making him a different person, you know, taking away the parts of him that are who he is and how he's wired. You just wanted to be able to understand him and be able to then acclimate accordingly, to help him calibrate, to help set him up for success, to be able to feel like you can live and not be held hostage, to not be able to go anywhere, to not be able to eat, to not be able to do all of these things that you know you have physical needs and like every right to live within, but ultimately, you just didn't know. You didn't know what. You didn't know to be able to understand what is this, where is it coming from? Why is it so big and hard and aggressive and just with me, and that feels insurmountable at times, and so I think I appreciate your ability to kind of be realistic with those expectations and to be able to say upfront, we still have hard days, he still has these like hard sensory aversions, and, you know, we still have to work within his capacity. And some days I'm able to read what's possible and what's not, and what I can challenge and what I can't. And I think every parent wants to be able to know that line more often than not. Of okay, I feel like I have the tools to challenge this, and we can go to the store today and it will be as successful, and I need to get what I need, and I'm going to make that choice, or today's choice is going to have to be I'm going to do it after bedtime or whatever, because, you know, I'm living within my means, I guess. But does that resonate? Does that feel like kind of where you're at now? 

Lisa  19:50  
Yeah, absolutely. I think a lot of it was I've learned like you said, I've learned how to talk with him. I mean, I still had the hard time, and trying to read him, but that's just every parent. But I feel like we have more good days than bad. Because when we came to you, I felt like every single day was ending badly and in tears for both of us, whereas now I can say, I would say, there are a whole lot more good days than bad days. I mean, there are still challenging days with him as a parent, and that's never going to change. And especially with kids who are neurodivergent, it's more, it just really is, and that's just facts. And I think a lot of it is us accepting those facts, those hard facts, and truths. And so in some ways it's comforting, but then in other ways, it's like, okay, what is the capacity for him? What is it going to be? Where does it stop? As in, where is his highest level? So to speak, of functionality for him. And you honestly won't know until he gets older, I can only continue to learn, but working with you like really helped us tremendously. 

Danielle Bettmann  21:08  
Well, that acceptance piece is a really big part of it, and I think you had almost accepted things before working together to an almost devastating level of feeling like this is my life. This is what I have to do to live every day. This is, you know, it's gonna be always survival mode. I just have to put my needs to the side and like it is what it is, and that's really harmful to your whole family's dynamic of like the culture of your home, and like your level of optimism, and like, you know, ability to live and feel alive. There are pendulums to that all or nothing, thinking of like I've accepted it, and this is what it is, and I'm living within that balance of I can challenge some things, and I accept some things, and I have tools on either side to help me with that. And I think that is when you know because you stayed in the graduate group for the last nine-ish months. And so every time I would get an update from you, it would always be, here is a situation I didn't think was possible before that we were just successful with, and I would be so happy for you, because it was like a level of delight and surprise like I had written this off as not possible for our situation. And look at us now, this is what we just did. So what's an example of that that you can think of?

Lisa  22:41  
So one is, like I said, we've been able to go out. And one of the things has been, we haven't done in the last couple of months, but in the fall, we were able to go out with a homeschool group made up of various neurotypical and neurodivergent families and be with them. And, you know, learn about nature, go out in nature, walk trails, like you said before, I would have never thought that possible. And then the other thing was, we really had a hard time with washing his hair, and just because of his sensory stuff, we still washed his hair, but it always ended in tears. And he came up with a crazy solution of using a bowl and flicking water on his hair, and he got half his hair done, and then he asked me to finish his hair. And so doing that method, did it take longer to wash his hair? Absolutely. Did we get it done? Yep. And he was so proud that he came up with a solution, that he washed his hair, you know, with mom's help. He did half of it by himself. And he was so proud. And I remember the call we were talking and he screamed in the background, and everybody just enjoyed his "I did it!" And then I guess the other thing too is he has, on occasion, made pancakes and waffles and eaten them. And one time he did make spaghetti and ate it. So for him, that is huge.

Danielle Bettmann  24:14  
What is something that you can make or eat now during the day? 

Lisa  24:20  
Usually, if it's anything kind of related to pasta or pizza, things that aren't as smelly. But then there are other days, like I said, it really depends on his day and stuff, but on a successful day, I'm able to do that. I'm able to eat tortilla chips with salsa because he likes tortilla chips now and he'll do different brands. Before that, he wouldn't do different brands, but now he does. Occasionally, I can sneak fruit. Today was not that day. So, I mean, it's getting better. I can eat different cereal with him in the same room. So yeah, that which would feel like nothing to another family, for us that's huge. 

Danielle Bettmann  25:14  
So yes, and you should shout that from the rooftops and feel so excited for your family, because they don't know what it was like before, and haven't, you know, experienced that level of restriction. And any win is a huge win when you're in your situation. And you know, I think you really validated that as we've worked together, so to give a quick before and after. When we first met,  I had you write down how you know how parenting feels, the number of kind of escalations overall at your house, and what you had shared with me that parenting felt stressful, frustrating, and angry, and on a typical day, there were about 15 to 20 escalations with you, versus about two to three with dad. And then when we finished working together after three months, there were about three a day, and they felt shorter, and you got to see him starting to use some of his tools that you were learning. So what else would you add to what you felt like the before and after? 

Lisa  26:24  
Before, it just felt like I was a failure. Nothing worked, and it was just constant, almost like constantly trying to put out fires that just weren't gonna go out, like never-ending fires that never extinguished, versus afterward. Okay, we still have, at times, those fires, but we had better tools, and we were more successful in either preventing them or calming them down, so to speak. And it really has changed. It really did change the house and stuff where it was like I said, we're not ending every day in tears. Sometimes, if he is having a hard day, I can say, okay, I know you're having a hard day. Let's figure this out. We need to work together to solve this problem. And sometimes he'll get on board, and sometimes he's just that strong-willed fighter. You have to just pick your battles at times, and then another day you come back at it with the same question, and he will give you the solution.

Danielle Bettmann  27:37  
Yeah, yep, totally.

Danielle Bettmann  27:39  
You here's the deal. If your child is sensitive and smart yet loses it, is clingy or aggressive with you at home, they can go zero to 60 over the smallest things, like when they just don't get their way, nothing changes their mind, and they can't seem to get over it. And you know, what you're doing isn't working, and siblings are starting to suffer. You could go to therapy yourself and take your child to therapy follow all the experts ask your family and friends for advice, take a course set up a calm down corner, and read all the parenting books and still feel defeated. It's time. It's time to learn the missing pieces of invaluable insight about their temperament that unlocks compassion in you and an understanding of how to work with the way they're wired. It's time to communicate in new ways, like a hostage negotiator, to get through to them and cultivate cooperation with confidence, and it's time to eliminate the behaviors that are working to gain control and attention at their root, rather than playing Whack a Mole, Calm and Confident, the Master Class is for you. There you will master the kind and firm approach your strong-willed child needs without crushing their spirit or walking on eggshells. In this free training, I share the four critical kind and firm scripts that unlock cooperation in every situation, how to eliminate behaviors at their root, and the path to solidifying the open and honest relationship that you want to have with your child down the road. So go to parenting wholeheartedly.com/confident to access this exclusive On-Demand training immediately. That's parenting wholeheartedly.com/confident, that link will be in the show notes.

Danielle Bettmann  29:46  
Pick your battles is huge, and it's so hard though to be able to do that with homeschooling, because there are restrictions and limitations and deadlines and things. So what have you been able to make possible on some of that progress? 

Lisa  30:03  
We were able to pass last year's home school with flying colors, because our evaluator, is certified in special needs, and because of the tools I learned from you, he did have a couple of episodes with her, but I knew how to handle them. He knew how to calm himself down. And so she got a glimpse into the lighter side of it, so she was able to give a real, you know, evaluation say, hey, look, the best thing for my son is home school. These are his strengths. These are what he needs to work on. And it was total agreement and stuff. And, you know, it was good. We had mentioned some things that we were going to try to do this year for the curriculum. And at first, things worked great. And then certain, like, things happened, and he decided to hit his fight. But we're starting to find our groove a little bit again, so we've done a little bit more work, and we're going to try something new curriculum-wise, but working with him, letting him have his input, but also letting him know we have certain things we have to meet and it's a requirement, and working together to solve the problem, you know, like your tools say, okay, what's the problem? This is our problem. Now, how do we work together to solve this problem? And this is the goal that we need to meet, and how can we do that? And so that's been good. And like I said, one of the biggest things is we've been able to, like, be part of a group and go out in nature and, you know, learn science that way and be around other people. And it's just been really healing for both of us to be able to do that and be surrounded by other people. 

Danielle Bettmann  31:52  
Absolutely, I think parenting kids like that would be very, very isolating, and there's a lot of loneliness, and there's a lot of just self criticism, and you know just feeling confused and lost, and you know your mental health really takes a beating. And I would love to hear how you feel like you as a parent, and your experience of parenting has evolved? 

Lisa  32:20  
So I know before we met you, part of me found you. I felt like I was failing motherhood, failing, and because I do homeschool, and because I'm at home all the time, and I felt like we couldn't go anywhere. I just felt really drained. And I've tried so many things, and nothing like I said, nothing worked. So it was like, okay, is this me? Because it was funny, because growing up, everyone's like, oh, you're a great teacher - all this stuff. And so, yeah, 

Danielle Bettmann

You were trained to be a teacher, right? 

Lisa

So I studied to become a teacher, and then I ended up not getting certified because I couldn't because I kept missing the English writing by one point and then I met my husband, and so life just took a different turn, and stuff.

Danielle Bettmann  33:03  
But you had those shoulds in your head of like, you should, you should be able to do,  this sounds cool. 

Lisa  33:16  
And with my daughter, I kept up with everything, and like, I picked my daughter's teacher's brains and stuff, so I stayed current with all of what was being required, for standards, for grade levels, and what was expected, what was new, and all that stuff, and what was old and so, you know. And I even tutored for a little while a few years back, and I was good at using the way we were raised, and what the new way, and combining them and teaching both styles, and then basically just saying, okay, if you're required to show the new way of how you solve a problem, then you do it that way, or do how your teacher wants you to show your work. But if it comes to testing, where it's only the answer that matters, do what works best for you. And a lot of them just do the old school method for the testing and like, their grades went up and because I also use what they like, but also take in the real world that relates to them with how you can use whatever math you're using, or science or whatever. So for me, it was like, okay, everyone's telling me I'm good at this and I felt like, I am not good at this. Everything I've tried is not working, and based on everything I've read and learned, this is supposed to be working, and it's not working. And so I felt like, okay, not only as a failure as a mother, but a parent as a teacher. And, you know, like, okay, now, how do I meet these expectations I'm supposed to be meeting with him if I can't do any of this? And so, yeah, I really took it hard. And I'm the type of person that if I'm good at something, I take it very personally if it's not working. So it could be not my fault, but I will make it my fault somehow.

Danielle Bettmann  35:04  
Well, Said, you're not the only one. 

Lisa  35:05  
And so then my husband had a hard time, because he saw this person that he's like, always encouraging, and knew I was good at and was like, he felt helpless because and hopeless because he's like, okay, nothing he's telling me is registering so he hated seeing me down and sad and it was hard on everybody. And so, you know, and then my son here after you, you know, we had talked with him, and he felt like no one understood him, no one was trying. And that broke me, because the reality was I was getting up super early, doing all this kind of research studying, staying up way past my bedtime, so he never saw me. So it really does take a beating. You take a beating. And so it was just really, really hard. And then after you, when we learned how to talk with him a little bit, we started learning some stuff. And then I just told him, because he is a little bit older, I was able to say, hey, look, Mommy was doing this. I know you didn't see me do this, but I was doing this for you, to help you and find ways to help you. And so he started being like, okay, a little bit understanding. I don't think he fully understands how much I went out of my way just because of his age, but he began to understand a little bit, okay, Mommy is trying to help me and stuff. So that did make a difference. And so then after you, it's like, I have become happier. Like I said, we've been able to go do stuff a little bit and stuff. You know, my husband is getting me back a little bit. I mean, there are still challenges, but you know, so we still have our hard days, but not as many as before. 

Danielle Bettmann  37:08  
Yeah, yeah, and I'm glad that you have been able to come back a little bit. That makes you a better parent, even though it's not like you were a bad parent before, but you were completely drained, just completely, you know, surrendering your autonomy and individuality and needs to try to meet his and that still wasn't working, which is the worst part of it. It's like if the level of sacrifice could just directly correlate with the outcomes, then you would have been having no problem at all, and that's what it feels like it should be. But the cruelty of it is that it's not, and that, I think is just horrific on the parenting experience side of things, because we just think if we check the right boxes, and we give of ourselves so completely, and we do all of the things that you know we're told to do, then surely, you know, we'll get good results on the other side, especially when it comes to our relationship with our kids, especially when it comes to his fundamental understanding of wanting to feel understood, how heartbreaking to know that, like out of all of that effort that need was not being met. That's devastating to hear. So what do you feel like when you try everything? What made the difference or was different about some of the things that you learned as we worked together, or being inside the community or the program? 

Lisa  38:38  
The two biggest things. One was, he was having a hard time. He really, was really having a hard time, and we as parents, were having a hard time. So everybody was having a hard time. And then the other biggest thing was we finally had a community where there was no judgment. Others were in the same situation or similar. And then the other thing was the scripts. The scripts were huge. Because I was like, okay, I have words for what to say and when to say and how to say that. That was tremendous. Because it's like I had tried talking with him in all the other ways, but I never tried talking to him in those ways, in that way, with those times. And it made a big difference. It really did. And to me, it's mind-blowing to just be able to use those scripts at the right moments that would just totally change how we can go about our day. It was just mind-blowing to me. It still is that I can prepare him with those certain scripts. Say, okay, this is how to talk to him, and the words to say to him, and then just say, okay, this is how I expect, this is what I need your help with. I expect this from you. This is going to be hard for you, so I'm not dismissing that this is hard for him, and these are your choices for how you can handle this hard situation, whatever it relates to and so he still has a choice, but it's a choice that I'm okay with. And I think that was another hard thing for me, it was like, if I give him a choice, then he's gonna do whatever he wants. Where I was learning, okay, I can still give him a choice, but still meet what I need him to meet. That was another huge thing I can still give him choices that I'm okay with, but he still feels like he has a choice. 

Danielle Bettmann  40:45  
Yeah, and one of the themes of when I hear you talking is the emphasis and that there can be two things that are true at once, and I think that that's a big part of some of our coaching and conversations is being able to name and come to terms with that. They both can be true at the same time. They can co-exist, and you can find sanity without negating one or the other of those things. And I think that that can be really freeing when you live within those means. 

Lisa  41:23  
Yeah, and I think for him, he felt like, okay, he's being heard. And I think that was huge, because, like I said before, he felt like he wasn't and it wasn't us not trying to not hear him. It's just we didn't understand. 

Danielle Bettmann  41:40  
And you would probably have said you wouldn't feel heard either, because you were having to, like, force and yell and go to these desperate measures to get him to do anything you needed him to do. 

Lisa  41:51  
Yeah, and then, even then, because he is a fighter and strong-willed, it was just like, there were times he just would not, and that was hard on me too, because it's like, okay, in my mind, I see this long list of things needing to be done. Nothing's getting done. So I see this list getting longer and like, okay, now, what are we gonna do? How are we gonna make this happen? But the irony is, if he puts his mind to it, the amount of work he can get done, and the amount of work he does in his head with math especially, is just mind-blowing. It's like he has his dad's math mind. I mean, he can get stuff done really quick in record time, if he puts his mind to it. And so it wasn't that he couldn't do it. And so that, at times, does make it harder, because he is very high-functioning, right? You know, he's capable. It makes it harder where, okay, I know you can do this. You're choosing either not to do this, or you're not doing this because it is related to one of his learning challenges. And so at this age right now, our biggest thing right now with him is he's saying things are getting really hard, really fast. And it is true because it is getting very hard, very fast. And honestly, most teachers and parents say the things they're expecting kids to learn at this age, they should not be required to be learning, but they are. But because I know how to talk to him now I can say, okay, look, I know this is hard. This is something you should not be learning until your xyz grade or age, but we can still work together to do this, like yesterday, he did probably pre-algebra, geometry, working with reading lines and lines and shapes and labeling them and, yeah, but it's a crazy, fourth, fifth-grade requirement. You know, I'm like, first, he's like, nope. And I'm like, look, this is something we have to do. And, like, last week, he fought me because he didn't like the idea of multiplying fractions.

Danielle Bettmann  44:07  
I don't blame him. 

Lisa  44:08  
But he can do it. He did good when he did it. It's just it was hard. And I told him, you know, it is hard. I hear you, and you still have to do this. 

Danielle Bettmann  44:20  
Yes. So much of what you're describing, I think, can be classified as the symptom, the neurodivergent symptom called pathological demand avoidance, where, because there is a demand placed on him, his natural inclination is to resist it and to feel, you know, put in a box, and to feel like very restricted, and then to kind of rebel against that just naturally by default. It doesn't matter what it is. It could be something he's good at. It could be something he absolutely hates, and it could be something that, you know, he enjoyed yesterday, but because it feels like a demand, it feels outside of his control, didn't feel his choice doesn't make sense to him, doesn't feel necessary, right? Like it doesn't matter kind of all those classifications can just instantly cause that demand avoidance, which makes it almost impossible for you to work through that as a homeschool mom, as his teacher and trying to manage that relationship between teacher and student, while also being mom and kid and trying to work with this neuro divergency. And I think that was one of the things that I really like affirmed while we were working together, is like you are doing an advanced level of challenge by taking on that teacher-student role, because this is so permeating and like the default, and that's of course, what causes a lot of parents to feel like their backs against the wall, to feel like they are helpless and to feel like they have to take desperate measures, because the alternative is it doesn't get done, and with homeschooling, you know, you had this looming thread of like, that means that he has to go back to public school then, and it's going to cause all these new other problems. And like, you have no other choice, and so, of course, you're going to feel like you have to lash out, or like, you know, to get by any means necessary to push through these demands. And what I think I hear you saying is now the scripts helped you feel equipped to work with that demand avoidance and find some cooperation on the other side, not every time, not every day, but in a way that unlocked things that were impossible before. Would you agree? 

Lisa  46:38  
Yeah, scripts, absolutely, 100% unlocked stuff for him. And because of how you laid out the scripts and the scenarios and when to use them and how to use them, I was able to take those and do that with him. And it really did make a huge difference. As I said, we were able to go into stores, you know, without a sensory meltdown and without a temper tantrum like that's just huge for a no divergent child, and not even asking to put something on a list. And like being able to run in when you needed to get a couple of things and run right back out. That was an impossible situation before, and now it's possible. And then even when it relates to school stuff, it's like, we can do this. And I have given him a little more input, because he is older on okay, this is what we're required, but we can pick and choose, because I remember he even, like, agreed to spread things out through the summer. 

Danielle Bettmann  47:43  
Wasn't that a conversation last summer that you kind of offered here the different terms and conditions, and he surprised you by agreeing to more days of school. Isn't that right? 

Lisa  47:54  
Yep, so he chose it because the option was we could do longer hours and finish. And have you know about maybe the month, month and a half of summer break, he chose he would rather have fewer hours for the day and work through summer and maybe have two, or three weeks of summer break. And that's what we did. And it did surprise me, because of who he is and how he is, I never in a million years would have picked him, especially him, as the child and kid to be the one that would say, okay, I want to work through my summer. I picked him to be the kid that would want summer, right?

Danielle Bettmann  48:39  
I love that, because that's the best dynamic, is to be pleasantly surprised by your kid, you know, showing up in ways that you're like, prove me wrong, please. I would love to be proved wrong, and then when you are, there's no better feeling, because it's essentially being able to see them work with the way that they're wired and within the means of society to ultimately meet that goal or be able to thrive, and that's all we want, as their parent, is to know that they have the skills necessary to be able to make decisions to be successful and be able to know what battles to pick in life, or how to get through those hard emotions, or to be able to kind of persist and to be more resilient. And when you have kids with demand avoidance, it does very much feel like they don't have the skills, or they're not going to be able to do hard things, or they're not going to be able to, when push comes to shove, do what they need to do, and that is scary as a parent, because there are so many situations they're gonna find themselves in that we can't prevent, or, like, stop them from, or like, you know, inevitably, they're gonna be their own person with their own struggles. And we just want to know that we've done our due diligence to do what we can. And with the things that we can control to, you know, bestow that upon them in any way that we can with our influence. So do you feel more confident? 

Lisa  50:10  
I do. And one thing that I just thought about with that him choosing that working through summer, it became hard for me, because I love my summer, and so it was like, okay, now I lose my summer.

Danielle Bettmann  50:25  
Yeah, fair. 

Lisa  50:26  
But in the eyes of him, it was like it was a win because he chose something unexpected. But yeah, I feel more confident. The biggest thing is I'm able to better read him more days than not. I still have days where, like I said, it's a challenge, and I do have a hard time reading him. Sometimes I get it wrong still and then there are days where we get it right, but with a neuro-divergent child that's strong-willed and fiercely independent, you're always going to have a challenge. You do have to take each day as it comes, and remember to breathe every day is a new day, and you have to look at it as okay, every day is a new day. Be prepared for those challenges. And I think because of your course, I'm better equipped for those challenges that come. I know some are gonna come in. I'm gonna have to learn as I go, but yeah, there's always gonna be a new curve ball. The biggest thing, like I said, you know, was the scripts of the community, and just finally, somebody heard us, our entire family, and there was no judgment and was there to offer advice and a different way to look at it. And so that was huge. 

Danielle Bettmann  51:47  
Yeah, yeah, an untapped market that you hadn't found yet of understanding exactly where you're coming from and where he's coming from, and being able to navigate and validate both sides in a way that brings you together rather than apart ultimately, very well said, Any other advice you have to share with any listeners that feel like they resonate with where you were before or having a kid that fits some of these criteria?

Lisa  52:21  
Never stop learning. There's always hope. Things do get better. Keep trying. Take each new day as it comes and breathe. You will find your people. You might not have them yet, but they're there out there. Yes, it makes it so much more manageable to know that you're in a club of people in the same situation, even though you never asked to be a part of that club. 

Danielle Bettmann  52:50  
No, you really don't, but we're here, and we're doing it together, and that is so empowering. Yes. So to wrap up, then, how would you describe that question that I ask every guest that comes on, how are you the mom your kids need? 

Lisa  53:08  
I guess I am more aware of his needs and more aware of the right tools for him. I am getting better at finding those few minutes to take care of me so that I can try to be more aware of what he needs through all his challenges continue to learn to read his signs, and continue to learn all the tools that are out there for him, and then just trial and error for the different things that might work with him. So we find what works. It does get better, and it's not you, it's not them, it's just the situation you're given. And you just have to find the right tools for your situation, for your child, and that's the key. 

Danielle Bettmann  53:23  
Exactly, I support that 100%. Both your kids are lucky to have you, because you are so persistent and determined to keep learning, to keep growing, to sacrifice anything that might help, and to recognize the compassion needed for both sides that you are having a hard time, and it's neither of your fault. It's a problem to solve, and you can do that together. And if you continue in that mindset and that world view and with that skill set, there's no problem that you can't figure out eventually, and I think that's super hope-giving when you feel like ultimately, that's where you're at, as opposed to what we described before, where everything just feels impossible and you really don't even know what you could challenge, or if you did, how you'd go about it, or how that would ever be successful. And, you know, finding yourself in that place, so I'm really, really proud of you. You should be so proud of yourself. I think the Lisa I met a little over a year ago wouldn't believe that she'd be on an episode saying these things. 

Lisa  55:20  
No, not at all. I would never have imagined the successes we've had. I really wouldn't, and I can't, thank you enough like you, and what you've created is just amazing. Thank you, and you have an amazing heart for families like us. So can't thank you, enough. 

Danielle Bettmann  55:39  
Thank you. 

Lisa  55:39  
Now I'm going to cry. 

Danielle Bettmann  55:41  
I know that's okay. Thank you for trusting me, and thank you for trusting yourself to know that you are worth the investment and to not let those shoulds stand in the way of, you know, I shouldn't need that because of my teaching background, or this shouldn't be this hard, or, you know, I'll figure it out, of just knowing that it's worth it, and that work continues to pay off for you, as though your skills build and your muscles are strengthened, and you practice this over and over, day in and day out, and just being kind to yourself, ultimately, that's what has continued to have you get up every day with that optimism of like, it's a new day. Let's try again. Let's take it hour by hour if we need to. You're doing something really, really hard and love is not enough to get you through. I know you have a lot of it, but you need even more than that right to stay sane. So it's truly a testament to your work and your determination to figure this out, that has kept you coming back, kept you in the graduate program, and kept you committed. And I couldn't be prouder to have you as a client. So thank you again for the ultimate compliment of being able to join me for an episode. Thank you for your vulnerability and honesty and for sharing from the depths of your heart where you've been and where you're at now. And I think it is, is truly an honor for those listening to be able to be on that journey and have a front-row seat to kind of hearing you figure it all out whenever it arrives, there's always tomorrow, so I'm going to keep seeing you. We're going to meet one-on-one soon and talk through some more things. And that's the reality. But once again, thank you for being here. 

Lisa  57:25  
You're welcome, and thank you for having me.

Danielle Bettmann  57:32  
Thank you so much for tuning into this episode of Failing Motherhood. Your kids are so lucky to have you. If you loved this episode, take a screenshot right now share it in your Instagram stories, and tag me. If you love the podcast, be sure that you've subscribed and leave a review so we can help more moms know they are not alone if they feel like they're failing motherhood on a daily basis, and if you're ready to transform your relationship with your strong willed child, and invest in the support you need to make it happen, schedule your free consultation using the link in the show notes. I can't wait to meet you. Thanks for coming on this journey with me. I believe in you and I'm cheering you on.